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KILLFILE

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Epicurean Intelligentsia
Articles Posted: 382  Links Seeded: 10284
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White, American, Navy Vet is Illegally Detained, Tortured, and Tried by US Government

Seeded on Thu Dec 21, 2006 8:54 AM EST
Read ArticleArticle Source: The New York Times
us-news, bush, gop, united-states, republican, terrorism, torture, terror, patriot-act, neo-cons, donald-vance
Seeded by Killfile
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Ever since the world learned of the lawless state of American military prisons in Iraq, the administration has hidden behind the claim that only a few bad apples were brutalizing prisoners. President Bush also has dodged the full force of public outrage because the victims were foreigners, mostly Muslims, captured in what he has painted as a war against Islamic terrorists bent on destroying America.

This week, The Times published two articles that reminded us again that the American military prisons are profoundly and systemically broken and that no one is safe from the summary judgment and harsh treatment institutionalized by the White House and the Pentagon after 9/11.

On Monday, Michael Moss wrote about a U.S. contractor who was swept up in a military raid and dumped into a system where everyone is presumed guilty and denied any chance to prove otherwise.

Donald Vance, a 29-year-old Navy veteran from Chicago, was a whistle-blower who prompted the raid by tipping off the F.B.I. to suspicious activity at the company where he worked, including possible weapons trafficking. He was arrested and held for 97 days — shackled and blindfolded, prevented from sleeping by blaring music and round-the-clock lights. In other words, he was subjected to the same mistreatment that thousands of non-Americans have been subjected to since the 2003 invasion.

At the request of some commenters in this thread I've written a follow-up Op-Ed which interested readers may find by clicking the following link:

It Can Happen To You: First They Came for the Muslims

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  • Public Discussion (82)
Killfile

Looks like this story is getting a fair bit of play. I'm not trying to make a race issue out of this but this guy seems very much like Joe Sixpack. If it can happen to him it can happen to you.

  • 19 votes
Reply#1 - Thu Dec 21, 2006 8:56 AM EST
vas

If this particular incident out of the hundreds (or is it thousands?) of illegal, unconstitutional and immoral detentions and torture is the straw that finally gets more Americans outraged... I'd have mixed feelings. Optimism that the broader outrage would have a positive effect on those still being held and tortured, and a positive effect in terms of legal sanction against the Bush administration. But pessimism because it took a white, American victim to get more Americans to look and care.

  • 16 votes
#1.1 - Thu Dec 21, 2006 1:57 PM EST
vassleer

because it took a white, American victim to get more Americans to look and care

Unfortunately this is usually exactly what is required to get the average American's attention.

  • 10 votes
#1.2 - Thu Dec 21, 2006 3:58 PM EST
Surya

Correct. Now we just need to see the guy on Oprah Winfrey and the ball will really start rolling. A lot of people don't believe anything actually happens unless they see it on Oprah.

  • 5 votes
#1.3 - Fri Dec 22, 2006 4:04 PM EST
Pauline Brock

A lot of people don't believe anything actually happens unless they see it on Oprah.

Yet, Oprah is black!

  • 2 votes
#1.4 - Fri Dec 22, 2006 9:11 PM EST
Reply
Captain Nemo

I was waiting for the story to come along. If it is, in fact, the story. It will be interesting to see, if we will repeat the "Weimar incident" or grow wiser to the threat. Wait, is Jack Leno on?

  • 8 votes
Reply#2 - Thu Dec 21, 2006 12:08 PM EST
Captain Nemo

The lawless nature of Mr. Bush's war on terror has already cost the nation dearly in terms of global prestige, while increasing the risks facing every American serving in the military.

Someone think we are really giving Bush-supporters a hard time? "Lawless nature"... Does that mean Bush is a war criminal? How does that reflect on people who still think Bush-jokes are uncivil? Hmmm.... Just wondering...

Would like to add to the above quotation: ...and, perhaps, everybody else...

  • 9 votes
Reply#3 - Thu Dec 21, 2006 12:12 PM EST
Captain Nemo

Why the hell is this article being ignored?

  • 12 votes
Reply#4 - Thu Dec 21, 2006 1:11 PM EST
Lucid

I'm glad to see it starting to get some play now. I think we should do everything we can to put it up into orbit. I've seen nothing on it mainstream, I'm hoping over the next few days there will be some sort of reaction.

  • 5 votes
#4.1 - Thu Dec 21, 2006 4:02 PM EST
ArdithDeleted
Brian White

I think I read this story on someone else's column earlier (Aine or Pamela Drew maybe). Except the version I read was 2 or 3 pages and had more details.

On Monday, Michael Moss wrote about a U.S. contractor ....

Here's the original story:
http://www.nytimes.com/2006/12/18/world/middleeast/18justice.html?_r=1&oref=slogin

  • 1 vote
#4.3 - Thu Dec 21, 2006 11:23 PM EST
Lucid

Lucid, the seed Killfile used for the op-ed and the link used for the original article both are from the New York Times. You can't get much more mainstream than that. :)

Sometimes I think people in general are too quick to allege that "nothing" has been reported via mainstream media, and often the news has been reported by AP, Reuters, CNN, MSNBC, NY Times (not AP, original), Washington Post (ditto) and other mainstream resources.

Well, you may be right about that. But I guess that when I want something to be mainstream, it means that when I go to yahoo news splash pages, I'd like to see the story, somewhere. In my opinion, this is an extremely important story. When I mean mainstream, I mean that everyone who reads the news occasional has at least heard of it.

Unfortunately, I'm not sure that any single newspaper, including the New York Times, is that mainstream anymore. Most of the US seems to be quite capable of looking past what they write.

  • 4 votes
#4.4 - Fri Dec 22, 2006 12:03 AM EST
Killfile

Lucid -- the AP, the AFP, and Reuters are a pretty vanilla and oligopolistic definition of the MSM. The NYT is well respected and fairly centrist -- if not syndicated by Yahoo.

  • 1 vote
#4.5 - Fri Dec 22, 2006 12:13 AM EST
Redruby

Lucid, I think you're right. The NYTimes has been damaged by the scandals over the past few years and the tie in to the Cheney white house. A lot of people don't read it anymore. I've read a few good things there lately.

Killfile I just found this article and don't know why I missed it, looking at the date you posted. I think you play your cards as they come and if this guy's tragedy sparks some more heads to look up, that's useful. Problems with what it takes to get attention should be taken up but not impede this getting at least some notice.

  • 2 votes
#4.6 - Sun Jan 14, 2007 12:00 AM EST
Reply
chill

Someone think we are really giving Bush-supporters a hard time?

The Liberal bias in the USA re: Iraq is a myth. The debate is so sanitized that it is almost a free pass for the administration. Real anti-war "bias" would include airing regularly footage of what is going on inside iraq on a daily basis. This occurs FAR mor regularly in the UK and other places

  • 20 votes
Reply#5 - Thu Dec 21, 2006 1:14 PM EST
NikitaB

Really? Would that include the business side of things?

    #5.1 - Thu Dec 21, 2006 8:12 PM EST
    chill

    Stiff Like this on independent UK station Channel Four rarely airs on airstream US TV. yet regularly airs elsewhere. My goodness, the USA can't even show coffins of dead soldiers. The debate is so sanitized, and that is one reason many americans see Iraq in a sort of "rah rah, we are the good guys and must win" rah rah way it's often cartoonish debate.

    Channel Four UK

    • 5 votes
    #5.2 - Fri Dec 22, 2006 6:09 AM EST
    Brian White

    I agree. Too bad rotten.com doesn't have a cable channel.

      #5.3 - Fri Dec 22, 2006 1:47 PM EST
      NikitaB

      chill, so is it also being sanitized in the other direction not covering enough good things happening in Iraq? Or do you think they should only show the bad things?

      • 1 vote
      #5.4 - Sat Dec 23, 2006 1:23 AM EST
      JimmyHavok

      Niki is trolling for hits on one of his stupid articles about how stupid everyone who disagrees with him is. Guess he needs the money.

        #5.5 - Fri Dec 29, 2006 3:38 AM EST
        Writer X

        Jimmy - I think you have to look at NikitaB as a whole. He says he came from Russia (or somewhere there) which has a different type of "freedom." Now that he lives in the US, he sees so much freedom that he lacked there and is having a hard time reconciling that there can be more freedom than what we have now. As far as he is concerned this is the best experience he has ever had and he can't understand how we can ask for more "freedom." His experiences there have given him a real appreciation for what he has here.

        How can you show someone who has just experienced so much freedom that he can't fathom even getting more? You can't. It takes time.

        • 3 votes
        #5.6 - Fri Dec 29, 2006 1:56 PM EST
        JimmyHavok

        He's certainly free to tell people that unless they know some particular acronym, they aren't qualified to talk about the war in Iraq, just as we are free to mock him for it.

          #5.7 - Fri Dec 29, 2006 5:08 PM EST
          Writer X

          hehehe. Can't argue with that :)

            #5.8 - Fri Dec 29, 2006 8:19 PM EST
            Reply
            Eric Atienza

            Back when these detentions started I, along with many others, was shocked and angered. Verbal protests of the unconstitutionality of all of this garbage were frequently met with "well it's necessary for security and if you haven't done anything wrong you shouldn't be afraid of this."

            Not suprisingly, we now see that argument was a load of crap and the detentions are moving along the same dangerous trajectory that so many of us were afraid of when they started.

            • 17 votes
            Reply#6 - Thu Dec 21, 2006 1:18 PM EST
            ArdithDeleted
            agio

            "whistle-blower"

            See, Bushco will still respect your civil rights, so long as you keep mum.

            • 3 votes
            Reply#8 - Thu Dec 21, 2006 1:56 PM EST
            Captain Nemo

            I remember this photo from a demonstration in the US some years ago; there was some young radicals with a banner saying:

            "Liberals, can we riot now?"

            (To CIA: I'm not saying anything. Please don't come and torture me. Just an anecdote.)

            • 9 votes
            Reply#9 - Thu Dec 21, 2006 2:06 PM EST
            Danny McGee

            This is absolutely sickening. Not because he was white or a Navy vet, but because he effectively became an "unperson" for reporting a suspected crime to the FBI. Where the @!$%# is this Goddamned country going? Everyone in any way responsible for this should be arrested and sentenced to at least ten years. For what it's worth, I'm also seeding it with a link here and comments disabled.

            • 11 votes
            Reply#10 - Thu Dec 21, 2006 2:28 PM EST
            Danny McGee

            For what it's worth, I'm also seeding it with a link here and comments disabled.

            Well, nevermind. I can't figure out how to disable comments on a seed. But still, this is horrendous. I await your op-ed, Killfile. That will probably draw more attention than this seed.

            • 1 vote
            #10.1 - Thu Dec 21, 2006 2:36 PM EST
            twistedonion

            Everyone in any way responsible for this should be arrested and sentenced to at least ten years.

            Well if you can get 10 years for a blowjob in America, I'd say life would be more proportionate.

            • 7 votes
            #10.2 - Thu Dec 21, 2006 7:02 PM EST
            vas

            If you think twistedonion is kidding, read this.

            • 8 votes
            #10.3 - Thu Dec 21, 2006 8:10 PM EST
            Danny McGee

            Well if you can get 10 years for a blowjob in America, I'd say life would be more proportionate.

            Good point.

            If you think twistedonion is kidding, read this.

            Nice plug. ;)

            • 4 votes
            #10.4 - Thu Dec 21, 2006 8:22 PM EST
            Reply
            azsky13

            Say anything? Ok, this does not surprise me. This is why the new Congress needs to immediately have hearings to expose the excesses and the illegal acts that the Bush administration has covered up. We all need to do more than just comment on this article. We need to contact our Senators and Representatives and force them to take action. They need to feel a little heat from the people they are supposed to represent. Maybe if enough is uncovered it will force some resignations or an impeachment. We all need to take action. Our future of our country depends on it. Take action in whatever way you can!

            • 6 votes
            Reply#11 - Thu Dec 21, 2006 2:35 PM EST
            chill

            The abuse that whistle blowers take is one of the more depressing parts of a society that portrays itslef as free

            • 9 votes
            Reply#12 - Thu Dec 21, 2006 2:39 PM EST
            oldfogey

            6....5.....4....3....2....1...countdown to?

            • 3 votes
            Reply#13 - Thu Dec 21, 2006 2:45 PM EST
            breacadh

            Undisguised fascism?

            • 10 votes
            #13.1 - Thu Dec 21, 2006 3:17 PM EST
            Reply
            Captain Nemo

            a society that portrays itslef as free

            We are kind of past that point, aren't we? I'd say we are somewhere 'round about you better watch what you say or do. And you better pray you don't get in touch with the wrong people, get your hands on the wrong information, or get suspected of just about anything.

            They got us locked down good and tight. There are about 100 ways of making people disappear without anyone knowing it. You can slip them a radioactive cocktail like somebody did in London. Criminals could suddenly visit like they do in Moscow, always four shots to the chest I have noticed. Which robbers use four bullets to the chest? You could be asked to go for a ride in the countryside. They could slip you a mickey. They could plant a package of white powder on you. They could send a letter with white powder to you. You can be on the phone one minute, then suddenly somewhere in South Saharan Africa strapped to a chair. Or in an abandoned warehouse in Brooklyn, same scenario.

            But we are peaceful people. We do no harm. We rant a little here on the 'vine, around about 500 other souls safely collected, IP addresses registered, real names and addresses categorized, profiled, indexed, monitored and psy op'd.

            The West, once benign, now malicious and unstoppable, devouring its own children.

            • 11 votes
            Reply#14 - Thu Dec 21, 2006 2:52 PM EST
            Pauline Brock

            As a Canadian living only an hour from the US border, I am appalled by what has been going on the past 6 years and particularly the past 3. There are so many scandals and so much chipping away at or bypassing the constitution that I honestly fear for America's survival.
            The one encouraging factor is that more and more Americans seem to be getting it, as evidenced by the November election results. Even those, however, don't seem to have put any pause into Bush's agenda but at least he is starting to be seen for what he is.

            • 10 votes
            Reply#15 - Thu Dec 21, 2006 3:16 PM EST
            Ryan Stolte-Sawa

            As a Canadian living in the States for almost a decade, I share your sentiment. I don't think there's any fear of America's downfall, though: there's not one empire in the history of civilization that hasn't fallen. This revelation is slowly dawning on the American people: the end of America's hegemony is a sure thing.

            • 4 votes
            #15.1 - Fri Dec 22, 2006 11:38 AM EST
            Reply
            enigma

            As usual, not a peep from those that previously -- and vociferously -- defended the administration's abuses of power. Where are you? Why aren't you defending your crooked leaders now?

            • 11 votes
            Reply#16 - Thu Dec 21, 2006 3:41 PM EST
            agio

            Waiting for the script.

            • 8 votes
            #16.1 - Thu Dec 21, 2006 3:53 PM EST
            Captain Nemo

            Waiting for the script.

            Ha ha. Rove's spin machine broke down again. Takes a couple of hours to get it going. I hear it's running on diesel.

            • 5 votes
            #16.2 - Thu Dec 21, 2006 4:30 PM EST
            Brian White

            Hey! The only reason this guy didn't confess was that they didn't torture him hard enough. Our military can't fight this war with you liberal namby-pambys tying one arm behind their back. No, they need to have both arms free, to tie the detainees' arms behind their backs. Don't blame me when the Iraqis ..... ah @!$%#, I can't even make that stuff up if I try.

            PolitcalD, where is your heated and illogical rhetoric when someone is actually asking for it?

            • 8 votes
            #16.3 - Thu Dec 21, 2006 11:42 PM EST
            Adam Hobson

            enigma, look down, comment 23.3.

              #16.4 - Thu Dec 21, 2006 11:45 PM EST
              AdipicAcid

              I hear it's running on diesel.

              Biodiesel, actually. Bull@!$%# in, bull@!$%# out.

              • 1 vote
              #16.5 - Sat Dec 23, 2006 3:25 PM EST
              Reply
              Maria G.

              I am appalled, disgusted, concerned...but unfortunately, not at all surprised.

              Whenever I read about the illegal wiretapping, suspension of habeas corpus, secret prisons, withholding on the right of an attorney, I felt physically sick.

              My Mom grew up in Korea during WWII and right after the Korean War, so our family has first-hand experience with time in jail, restriction of liberties, suspension of freedom of the press, beatings by police, propaganda--from both the Japanese and then later the American-sponsored dictators trying to restore order. My Dad is Lithuanian and his family fled the country when the Soviets took it over, leaving that frying pan to land in the fire of pre-WWII Germany. Not only did they suffer under Hitler, they were caught up in the post war politics and had to flee at night to escape East Germany while under fire from border guards.

              I can't believe they made it to America only to have our nation trade in our valuable freedoms and protections for the mere hope of greater safety. And I'm all for greater security, but I don't want it at the cost of truth, democracy and the Bill of Rights!!!

              If anyone thinks these kind of things can't happen in the US, they are dead wrong.

              • 10 votes
              Reply#17 - Thu Dec 21, 2006 3:56 PM EST
              breacadh

              Come January, I'm pretty sure the 110th Congress will move to pull us out of this tail-spin into fascism. Yuh-huh. The 110th Congress may take its cue to reform from the dissatisfaction evidenced by results of the midterm election.

              Could happen. Don't let bad-news/outrage-fatigue keep you from speaking up.

              We should urge them along with emails, faxes, phone calls in the first week of the 110th Congress, demanding public review of the Military Commission Act (legalizing torture and abandoning habeas corpus), NSA-surveillance breaches, the Patriot Act... everything the BushWah has sleazed into law under the pretext of its bogus 'war on terror'.

              Yes, we can.

              • 4 votes
              Reply#18 - Thu Dec 21, 2006 3:57 PM EST
              Rimuladas

              This sucks. Why would they do that to the guy that tipped them off? Thats just FUBAR.

              • 4 votes
              Reply#19 - Thu Dec 21, 2006 4:13 PM EST
              Pauline Brock

              To discourage others from doing the same, for starters.

              • 7 votes
              #19.1 - Thu Dec 21, 2006 4:36 PM EST
              Captain Nemo

              You know, Rimuladas, if you fall into the hands of men who have "treated suspects in a less than civil manner" hundreds of times, there are a few things you can be sure of: They are not going to be too squeamish about who they torture, they are not going to care a lot about proper investigation, they will have a dictionary where all words "deemed liberal" are crossed out in black, and you will be lucky if they remember your name. Hell, you'll be lucky if you remember your name. This is the biggest fubar factor in torture: It's mofo idiots who are the butchers, so they are bound to make mistakes. Torture is based on the principle of quantity: The more people you torture, the better the chances you get useful information. You can't get too big an inflow; you can only have too few cells.

              That's basically why torture is something we did before we invented criminal investigation back in the 19th century. Living back then would really suck unless you were Marquis de Sade or Sacher Masoch, because people were very superstitious, truly sadistic and incredibly inventive.

              • 6 votes
              #19.2 - Thu Dec 21, 2006 4:44 PM EST
              Tim Baxter

              I think you meant...

              Living can really suck unless ... because people are very superstitious, truly sadistic and incredibly inventive.

              • 1 vote
              #19.3 - Thu Dec 21, 2006 10:30 PM EST
              Reply
              Pauline Brock

              Just one thing, I've been poking around at news sources, and do we actually KNOW that Donald Vance is white? (Of course the account stands on its own regardless but we don't want to go around crowing that a white guy finally is being treated badly if he's not.. white.)

              • 3 votes
              Reply#20 - Thu Dec 21, 2006 4:48 PM EST
              Pauline Brock

              That "badly" should be, illegally, immorally, unconstitutionally, etc. Damn uneditable comments.

              • 3 votes
              #20.1 - Thu Dec 21, 2006 4:49 PM EST
              Killfile

              Photo of Mr Vance, about half-way down the page.

              • 6 votes
              #20.2 - Thu Dec 21, 2006 5:00 PM EST
              Pauline Brock

              Ah. Worth 1000 words, ain't it... :)

              • 2 votes
              #20.3 - Thu Dec 21, 2006 5:08 PM EST
              Oluseye

              "Donald Vance". Just has to be white :))

              • 4 votes
              #20.4 - Fri Dec 22, 2006 5:39 AM EST
              Reply
              Writer X

              Good catch Killfile :)

              I wish people would start understanding that stories like these are the ones that are caught. How many out there have not seen the face of day yet? That is the scary part.

              • 9 votes
              Reply#21 - Thu Dec 21, 2006 5:45 PM EST
              twistedonion

              Killfile, I've only been on Newsvine a couple of weeks now, but dammit, your column alone is providing me with more info than BBC news does each morning. Congrats and don't let up.

              In regards to this story - it was really only a matter of time. What matters now is the reaction of the average Joe Bloggs on the street in America. How outraged I am is irrelevant (I've been outraged enough without needing to find a white American citizen being tortured by his own Government). Anyway, I'm not American so I'm not really going to comment on this much further. I've been pretty pissed at my own countrymen being sent halfways round the world and tortured with absolutely no evidence by a bunch of wannabe (soon to be? That'll be up to Joe Bloggs and his mates) fascists.

              Time to stop being a patriot and start being human. @!$%# Nationalism, it time to fight extemism of all kinds.

              • 9 votes
              Reply#22 - Thu Dec 21, 2006 6:04 PM EST
              Captain Nemo

              Dem labelled me a

              terrorist

              Calling me a thug.

              Dem labelled me a terrorist

              Calling me a slug... But I never did join bin Laden's crew anyway And now me know to be a Muslim is a hard core ting...

              And I got no love for the American government

              Dey can go suck and I don't mean peppermint.

              Now hear da bombs drop

              As de Muslim babies, dem a die,

              Now hear de bombs drop

              As de Muslim mothers dem a cry

              Now hear de bombs drop

              As de Muslim soldiers dem a fly

              Why? Because dey no want fe die.

              No further witnesses, you honor. Defense rests its case.

              • 2 votes
              #22.1 - Thu Dec 21, 2006 7:55 PM EST
              Danny McGee

              No further witnesses, you honor. Defense rests its case.

              Uhhh, what the hell was that?

              • 1 vote
              #22.2 - Thu Dec 21, 2006 8:23 PM EST
              Reply
              Adam Hobson

              Does anyone have links to the two articles referenced to in this editorial? I mean just going by this alone there is no proof whatsoever. No sources were sited, not even anonymously. I'd like to see the original reporting and see if they name any sources. I'm reserving judgment until then.

              • 2 votes
              Reply#23 - Thu Dec 21, 2006 7:43 PM EST
              evano

              Hey, Adam: heres the link to the article about Mr. Vance. I'm still looking for the Dave Johnston article.

              • 6 votes
              #23.1 - Thu Dec 21, 2006 8:08 PM EST
              evano

              Here's the other article.

              • 6 votes
              #23.2 - Thu Dec 21, 2006 8:11 PM EST
              Adam Hobson

              Thanks evano.

              Looking pretty damaging.

              This person obviously just does not get it:

              A spokeswoman for the Pentagon's detention operations in Iraq, First Lt. Lea Ann Fracasso, said in written answers to questions that the men had been "treated fair and humanely," and that there was no record of either man complaining about their treatment.

              Fair and humanely means charges, lawyers, trials and all that.

              I would really like to hear what the Pentagon or administration has to say about this. I really can't think of any excuse that would cover this. There really isn't.

              • 11 votes
              #23.3 - Thu Dec 21, 2006 8:35 PM EST
              Reply
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