Visit Killfile's column >>

KILLFILEHome Page

Epicurean Intelligentsia
Add To Watchlist
Articles Posted: 303; Links Seeded: 7536
Member Since: 2/2006Last Seen: 11/07/2009

The "Surge" Won't Work -- A Wilsonian Solution for Iraq

Live Poll

What is the best way out of Iraq?

  • Pack up and leave. Now.
    26%
  • "Surge" the insurgency into submission
    3%
  • Phased pull out over the next two years.
    13%
  • Stay the course
    8%
  • Carpet bombing
    5%
  • Divide Iraq with help from the UN
    34%
  • There is no way out
    11%

Total Votes: 38

You break it you buy it.

Photo by James McCauley. (License: Creative Commons Attribution)

advertisement

Colin Powell, perhaps apocryphally, warned President Bush in the build up to the 2003 Iraq invasion, "If you break it you buy it." Irrespective of the dubious intelligence upon which the case for war in Iraq was built, little disagreement exists upon the following statement: It was Saddam Hussein's brutal dictatorship that maintained the fragile peace between the various sects and ethnic factions in Iraq.

Now, nearly four years and a third of a trillion dollars later, with Saddam Hussein awaiting the hangman's noose, Iraq is plunging headlong into civil war. US forces, caught in the crossfire, are fighting a loosing battle – attempting to impose nationhood upon an unstable and unwilling collection of warring factions.

It is an effort that can only end in failure.

Iraq, if it is to exist as a unified state entity, must follow a singular path. Unable and unwilling to accept the compromise of representative government, one faction must ultimately conquer and subordinate the others in what will likely prove to be a bloody, brutal, and lengthy civil war. If the United States is to continue in its occupation of Iraq throughout this process it will suffer the consequences – both in blood and treasure - as warring factions seek legitimacy by striking at an unpopular foreign garrison.

Though noble in intent, even the Pentagon's planned escalation, a "surge" of troops, is unlikely to avert this long, slow, bleed. A temporary increase in the number of US troops will have little lasting impact on sectarian and ethnic tensions now hundreds if not thousands of years old. Indeed, the "surge" may have the unintended political affect of ending what little political support for the Iraq war still exists in the United States. Should the violence persist, the American public may very well interpret that failure as the death-knell of an American presence in Iraq.

Alternatively, the United States may, as it did in the days of the Cold War, choose a favored side in a deeply sectarian conflict, hoping to influence the outcome and secure a friendly government in the Middle East though at a prohibitive cost, both politically and economically.

Neither option is likely to be seen as desirable, both by a President unwilling to compromise upon the fundamental wisdom of the decision to invade and a public increasingly dubious of the long term stability and viability of the President's plan for the region.

A third option exists.

Iraq's boundaries were drawn by Sir Winston Churchill and are one of the many enduring reminders of European colonialism throughout the world. As such, those boundaries are both artificial and arbitrary – grouping, as the British Empire often did, disparate tribes, ethnicities, and religions with little regard for more traditional lines of demarcation. By adhering to lines fixed only by geometric convenience, the United States has hamstrung itself – effectively condemning American troops to the dismal choice between a bloody, decades long occupation and an ignominious retreat. Like Gaul, Iraq is divided into three parts and an exit strategy that capitalizes upon this reality enjoys significant advantage.

To that end President Bush should consider, among his various other plans, the audacious option of dividing Iraq into three separate states. The first, a Kurdish state comprised of the northern regions of Iraq, particularly those bordering Turkey, would establish a homeland for the Kurds and eliminate much of the ethnic dimension of the Iraq conflict. As the overwhelming remainder of Iraq's population is divided along sectarian lines, primarily between the two most prevalent sects of Islam – Shiite and Sunni, dividing Iraq's southern regions between these sects follows logically and leverages self determination for the conflicted religious groups and the removal of much of the impetus for continued conflict by the non-extremist portions of the population.

This plan trades one large problem – an Iraqi Civil War – for a series of smaller ones. As former claimants to Iraq's oil wealth, the newly divided states must either arrive at some mutually beneficial sharing of oil revenues or forgo them entirely. The Iraqi population is not segregated by sectarian affiliation, making the imposition of such a division both difficult and costly. Moreover, Iraq has few natural borders which provide a serious impediment to a modern military, making the defense of these newly created states a difficult proposition.

Indeed similar challenges proved insurmountable in the aftermath of the First World War. Wilson's plan for a Post-War Europe privileged self determination over defensible borders. As a result, Hitler's Wehrmacht found little resistance as it rolled through Eastern Europe during the Second World War. But the world is very different today than it was nearly a century ago when Wilson's doomed idealism was inflicted upon Europe. In that perhaps lies the greatest difficulty in the plan of a divided Iraq.

The United States must humble herself.

After so many years of failed occupation, the United States has little legitimacy or moral authority left in Iraq. Its political will is sapped and its confidence shaken, rendering an exit strategy of this scope politically impossible as a unilateral measure. It it time to turn to the United Nations. Through the course of the reconstruction the United States has jealously guarded Iraq against other powers which, though unwilling to assist in the invasion, expressed interest in the profits and oil revenues to be made in reconstruction. Bush must return to the United Nations, admit his mistakes, and ask for the cooperation of the world to secure Iraq against a future genocide.

It will be a lot of hard work - something the President has repeatedly assured Americans he's not afraid of, though perhaps not convincingly. Massive numbers of international troops will be necessary to relocate those who wish to move across the boundaries. Still more troops would be required to create and, for some time, staff defensible borders. Creating a fair and equitable means to divide Iraq's oil wealth would require the cooperation of the United Nations as well as the existing Iraqi oil ministry (conveniently one of the few ministries inside the Green Zone).

But the United States can not walk this road alone. The pathetic "coalition of the willing," the scattered remains of a bribed collection of third rate powers, is not sufficient to even begin an undertaking of this magnitude. Bush must beg the assistance of the world and, in doing so, must admit the error of unilateral invasion. Other alternatives abound: civil war, genocide, retreat, defeat; but none present a viable and lasting peace for Iraq nor a desirable end game for the beleaguered United States.

You break it, you buy it.

  • 40 Votes
  • Enjoy this article? Help vote it up the 'Vine.

Back To Top

What's this?
Who's leading the conversation?
This visualization below allows you to see the impact that each user has on the current conversation. The top row contains the group of users who have had the most impact, the 2nd row the group of users who have had the 2nd most impact (et cetera). Users with similar impact are grouped together, and the average score of the group is shown to the left of the group. The author of the article is also shown on the left, in their corresponding group. Each user's score is based on the number of comments the user has made plus the number of votes their comments have received. The scores are calculated relative one another, so while their absolute value is not particularly important, their relative difference does indicate a larger difference in impact on the conversation.
11
3.6
{"commentId":450383,"authorDomain":"killfile"}

So what do you think? Can dividing Iraq give the United States a workable exit strategy? Is the "surge" going to work or is escalation of the Iraq war a pointless undertaking at this point?

{"commentId":450383,"threadId":"64292","contentId":"499375","authorDomain":"killfile"}
  • 4 votes
Reply#1 - Fri Dec 29, 2006 11:04 AM EST
{"commentId":451801,"authorDomain":"insight"}
Guido SohneDeleted
{"commentId":452034,"authorDomain":"PrimarySources"}

can't help wondering about what right the US has to break up another country into bits

I think at this point we're long past the point where U.S. "rights" to do things to Iraq are relevant.

{"commentId":452034,"threadId":"64292","contentId":"499375","authorDomain":"PrimarySources"}
  • 1 vote
#1.2 - Sat Dec 30, 2006 7:30 AM EST
{"commentId":452157,"authorDomain":"insight"}
Guido SohneDeleted
{"commentId":453437,"authorDomain":"ISPY"}

Well the idea of the final Putsch is something that infected the 14th Air after they questioned the Nazi's, who told them what they wanted to hear, "If you had of dropped just one more bomb Germany would have collapsed and the streets would be lined with flower baring Citizens.

I dont see a divided Iraq as a proposition. There will never be an independant Kurdistan while Turkey and others have so much to loose. So Bush must try to repair the damage before the US is driven off. There is also some major manouvres going on in Turkmenistan at present that could have profound implications for the US strategic policy in central Asia.

{"commentId":453437,"threadId":"64292","contentId":"499375","authorDomain":"ISPY"}
  • 3 votes
#1.4 - Sun Dec 31, 2006 12:05 PM EST
{"commentId":453469,"authorDomain":"insight"}
Guido SohneDeleted
{"commentId":454310,"authorDomain":"ISPY"}

On the death of Turkmenbashi all contracts are null and Void. The US has been trying to obtain permission for the under Caspian pipe for some tome and now all the work has been for nothing. There is also new trouble starting up in Karachay and this will directly effecty BP. That is why a FARP in Baghdad is so important. Europe will not have enough gas again this winter and Russia will blame someone else for the Disruption to supplies. As for the Barnetts Sea America has lost that one to Norway.

{"commentId":454310,"threadId":"64292","contentId":"499375","authorDomain":"ISPY"}
  • 2 votes
#1.6 - Mon Jan 1, 2007 6:23 AM EST
Reply
{"commentId":450420,"authorDomain":"newcreation"}

It's an interesting idea. But I think the artificial boundaries have been up long enough to be considered real, even in the minds of the natives.

{"commentId":450420,"threadId":"64292","contentId":"499375","authorDomain":"newcreation"}
  • 2 votes
Reply#2 - Fri Dec 29, 2006 11:17 AM EST
{"commentId":450429,"authorDomain":"killfile"}

The boundaries are, but not the land they enclose. Iraq wasn't always Iraq, and by enclosing it with artificial boundaries, Churchill created a country that never existed before. That country is comprised of people who don't see themselves as countrymen but as distinct groups. Enclosing them in artificial borders don't change that reality - it just serves to force them to fight for control of a larger chunk of land.

{"commentId":450429,"threadId":"64292","contentId":"499375","authorDomain":"killfile"}
  • 2 votes
#2.1 - Fri Dec 29, 2006 11:19 AM EST
Reply
{"commentId":450453,"authorDomain":"redruby"}

I'd put my money on the UN led division that honored the Kurds, the Shiites and the Sunnis. The problem is that Bush lacks the cojones as well as the moral authority to go there. I don't see the downside. Oil revenues can be divided and shared. Don't see the downside here.

{"commentId":450453,"threadId":"64292","contentId":"499375","authorDomain":"redruby"}
  • 4 votes
Reply#3 - Fri Dec 29, 2006 11:28 AM EST
{"commentId":450457,"authorDomain":"stolte-sawa"}

When faced with the option of dividing Iraq, I'm inclined to give a nod to Israel and Palestine.

{"commentId":450457,"threadId":"64292","contentId":"499375","authorDomain":"stolte-sawa"}
  • 1 vote
Reply#4 - Fri Dec 29, 2006 11:29 AM EST
{"commentId":450466,"authorDomain":"killfile"}

That's fair stolte, though I'd point out that there's no "homeland" conflict in Iraq at this point. The real danger I see is that one or two of these proposed countries is going to be land-locked.

{"commentId":450466,"threadId":"64292","contentId":"499375","authorDomain":"killfile"}
  • 2 votes
#4.1 - Fri Dec 29, 2006 11:31 AM EST
{"commentId":450486,"authorDomain":"stolte-sawa"}

That's true, too, Killfile. I just worry at this point that outside forces have lost their agency and, furthermore, that if division were a plausible scenario, Iraqi factions would have worked something out by now. This is, after all, conflict that spans centuries.

{"commentId":450486,"threadId":"64292","contentId":"499375","authorDomain":"stolte-sawa"}
  • 3 votes
#4.2 - Fri Dec 29, 2006 11:39 AM EST
{"commentId":450780,"authorDomain":"wbrianwhite"}

I think that there was strong support among Iraqis for dividing into three loosely allied states when writing their new constitution. Washington pretty much dictated that it didn't want that. So I don't see how you can try it now that they do have a constitution that calls for a united country and a strong central government.

{"commentId":450780,"threadId":"64292","contentId":"499375","authorDomain":"wbrianwhite"}
  • 5 votes
#4.3 - Fri Dec 29, 2006 1:41 PM EST
{"commentId":451523,"authorDomain":"stolte-sawa"}

The ironies of government are many, Brian. Imagine what the world would be like if everyone operated by keeping an open mind to the welfare of others.

{"commentId":451523,"threadId":"64292","contentId":"499375","authorDomain":"stolte-sawa"}
  • 4 votes
#4.4 - Fri Dec 29, 2006 10:10 PM EST
Reply
{"commentId":450459,"authorDomain":"gregplancich"}

Top notch article, Killfile! It is definitely one of your best.

I had a long comment about the benefits and difficulties of each option and the conflict in my mind between them, but I have come to the conclusion that going to the UN and having a referendum within the country on the basis of re-partition to decide where to go.

If they reject it, I move for a phased withdrawal within two years.

{"commentId":450459,"threadId":"64292","contentId":"499375","authorDomain":"gregplancich"}
  • 5 votes
Reply#5 - Fri Dec 29, 2006 11:30 AM EST
{"commentId":450472,"authorDomain":"killfile"}

Thanks Greg. I'm kind of hoping someone who thinks the surge can work will engage this debate because I'd really like to get that point of view expressed in this thread as well.

{"commentId":450472,"threadId":"64292","contentId":"499375","authorDomain":"killfile"}
  • 4 votes
#5.1 - Fri Dec 29, 2006 11:33 AM EST
Reply
{"commentId":450492,"authorDomain":"agio"}

While I think dividing Iraq up would be best for the people of Iraq themselves, I'm not sure its neighbors would be pleased. Turkey, in particular, would be opposed to an independent Kurdistan on its borders. And I can't imagine Saudi Arabia would be happy with another independent Shi'ite state, particularly one with such close ties to Iran.

I'm not saying it couldn't happen, just that it would take the kind of "Wilsonian" diplomacy that the current administration seems to lack.

Great read, btw.

{"commentId":450492,"threadId":"64292","contentId":"499375","authorDomain":"agio"}
  • 3 votes
Reply#6 - Fri Dec 29, 2006 11:43 AM EST
{"commentId":450497,"authorDomain":"farmer"}

This plan trades one large problem – an Iraqi Civil War – for a series of smaller ones.

The division of Iraq would only work if it is done this way: The north (Kurds) to Turkey; the south (Shia) to Iran; the west (Sunni) to Saudi. I don't believe the US would support this type of division. Dividing Iraq within itself will just trade one large problem for three large problems and the possibility of a regional war. This solution would present one of our enemies and two of our allies with internal problems which they may be able to handle on their own.

Adding ingredients to a pot that is already boiling over makes no sense whatsoever. The US could go in, conquer all of Iraq, occupy and subdue all discontent and then make Iraq subject to our dominion. This has a potential for causing a greater regional conflict and even retaliation by some of our supposed allies. It would definitely sap the US financial strength and internal political will as US casualties and expenses would be significant.

Folding the flag and bringing our military home is probably the only good exit we can make. I fear the day when we watch the last helicopters picking up our last people from the top of the embassy. We can either depart safely and cautiously or be forced out. I would make this point, it might be best if we required those so called Iraqis who we placed in government positions to stay behind and repair the damage. They had a solution, now let them show us.

{"commentId":450497,"threadId":"64292","contentId":"499375","authorDomain":"farmer"}
  • 5 votes
Reply#7 - Fri Dec 29, 2006 11:45 AM EST
{"commentId":450534,"authorDomain":"killfile"}

I don't see a regional war coming out of this -- largely because there don't seem to be enough motivated combatants to make it happen nor the capabilities to project power outside of the urban areas.

Your alternative of dividing Iraq between existing regional powers is interesting, but I would think that would create a greater risk of regional war.

{"commentId":450534,"threadId":"64292","contentId":"499375","authorDomain":"killfile"}
  • 2 votes
#7.1 - Fri Dec 29, 2006 12:01 PM EST
Reply
{"commentId":450597,"authorDomain":"vassleer"}

Great article as always kill...

One big issue that you missed here is Turkey's response to an independent Kurdish state on their southern border. There is a very large Kurdish population in Turkey that has agitated for independence in the past. With a newly independent Kurdish state to their south the Turkish Kurds would likely restart their own independence movement - something that Turkey has not allowed in the past. Turkey will likely apply whatever pressure it can to prevent a Kurdish nation on its border.

Another issue:

Bush must return to the United Nations, admit his mistakes, and ask for the cooperation of the world to secure Iraq against a future genocide.

I do not see Bush as being able to do this. He has not even admitted his mistake for invading Iraq in the first place, I can hardly see him apologizing to the world for it - especially with how many other nations have condemned his actions in Iraq previously.

Though I voted for the "division of Iraq" option in the poll, I foresee the same problems that you mentioned in your article. The Kurds in the north have basically established a "state within a state" and are content to sit out the civil war. They have sufficient oil fields in the north to keep them happy, and have no desire to pursue additional gains in the south.

The Shiite's control the vast majority of central and eastern Iraq, an area which includes the majority of Iraqi oil fields. Other than Baghdad, which has large Sunni neighborhoods, the remaining land is primarily Shi'ite. The Sunnis in the south and west are the real problem behind a division. They control virtually none of the oil, and they will never cede Baghdad to the Shiite's. The real key to this proposal is getting the Sunni to agree to the division without further escalation. Saudi support would help in this case, but I am still unsure whether the Sunni minority will go along with the division of Iraq.

{"commentId":450597,"threadId":"64292","contentId":"499375","authorDomain":"vassleer"}
  • 3 votes
Reply#8 - Fri Dec 29, 2006 12:33 PM EST
{"commentId":450608,"authorDomain":"killfile"}

True enough, Turkey will complain mightily about a Kurdish nation (though Oldfogey's suggestion of incorporation might address this) and I also don't see Bush as willing to knuckle under and admit he was wrong.

I present this more as a viable alternative that I know will never be considered than as one that has a chance of implementation. What's going to happen is that Bush is going to go ahead with his "surge," it's going to fail, and the United States will be forced out of Iraq in much the same way as we were Vietnam... probably under whomever replaces George Bush in 2008.

{"commentId":450608,"threadId":"64292","contentId":"499375","authorDomain":"killfile"}
  • 3 votes
#8.1 - Fri Dec 29, 2006 12:37 PM EST
{"commentId":454877,"authorDomain":"Cassandra"}

Yup. Several hundred million $$ and thousands of lives of US troops later. Why do I think this man is too small for his office?

{"commentId":454877,"threadId":"64292","contentId":"499375","authorDomain":"Cassandra"}
  • 1 vote
#8.2 - Mon Jan 1, 2007 6:03 PM EST
Reply
{"commentId":450781,"authorDomain":"merrillr"}

Killfile,

I think your suggestion is a terrible option, for a host of reasons. The only worse options are all the others.

I see the top three problems with your proposal being the unequal distribution of oil resources in Iraq - the oil wealth does not match the Sunni/Shia population distribution, that Turkey is opposed to an independent Kurdish state, and the Kurds are opposed to being part of Turkey, and the stake of Al Queda & Iran in perpetuating instability in Iraq.

The alternatives at this point appear to be worse though.

The surge option is opposed by our military leaders, and no one has articulated a case for how throwing only another 50,000 troops in is going to change the fundamental direction that Iraq is headed. The only people I have seen supporting this idea are the politicians Bush and McCain, and a few political flacks trying to support the Party line.

Just pulling out, as suggested by oldFogey, above, is most likely to hurt our national security. What is going to happen if we just walk-away from the mess we created? It will likely devolve into full civil war, turn into more of a breeding ground for extremists and terrorists. And Iraq, or what is left of it, will ultimately be run by another strong-man like Saddam or religious extremists like the Taliban. And the group everybody in the country will all agree on hating will be the United States, with solid justification. The end result will be more threats to the United States.

Killfile has the best solution I have seen - push the Iraqis and the international community to help us in implementing a stable, three state solution. These seems to offer a reasonable hope that people could unite behind and work together to implement.

{"commentId":450781,"threadId":"64292","contentId":"499375","authorDomain":"merrillr"}
  • 2 votes
Reply#9 - Fri Dec 29, 2006 1:42 PM EST
{"commentId":451110,"authorDomain":"killfile"}

I think your suggestion is a terrible option, for a host of reasons. The only worse options are all the others.

Winson Churchill would be proud.

{"commentId":451110,"threadId":"64292","contentId":"499375","authorDomain":"killfile"}
  • 2 votes
#9.1 - Fri Dec 29, 2006 4:39 PM EST
Reply
{"commentId":450782,"authorDomain":"theottoshow"}

Well, the Ethiopians have demonstrated that a 'surge' can have benefits.

That being said, I am interested in the representative state solution to Iraq. I've considered that before. Any more thoughts on it?

{"commentId":450782,"threadId":"64292","contentId":"499375","authorDomain":"theottoshow"}
  • 4 votes
Reply#10 - Fri Dec 29, 2006 1:42 PM EST
{"commentId":450958,"authorDomain":"vassleer"}

Their surge is only effectibe because it is backed by tanks and jet fighters...something that Somalia totally lacks. The Ethiopians actually have one of the most advanced militaries in Africa, behind only South Africa and Egypt.

Armor and Jets do little against an insurgency in urban areas...as the Iraqis have shown the U.S. for the last several years.

{"commentId":450958,"threadId":"64292","contentId":"499375","authorDomain":"vassleer"}
  • 3 votes
#10.1 - Fri Dec 29, 2006 3:13 PM EST
{"commentId":451469,"authorDomain":"theottoshow"}

No, it was successful because they didn't pussyfoot around with it. They went in and wiped them out. Terrorists only respect blunt force. This may not end the problems for the Ethiopian government but to say that it didn't work...I think it was pretty inspiring myself. It may not end the war but it was certainly a decisive battle victory.

{"commentId":451469,"threadId":"64292","contentId":"499375","authorDomain":"theottoshow"}
  • 1 vote
#10.2 - Fri Dec 29, 2006 9:32 PM EST
{"commentId":451485,"authorDomain":"thevineofhob"}

Armor and Jets do little against an insurgency in urban areas...as the Iraqis have shown the U.S. for the last several years.

That is, they do little if your goal is to minimize casualties. If your goal is just to kill the terrorists then jets and tanks work quite well.

We only have problems in Iraq because we actually do care about the people. That's what always amazes me about the people who claim that Bush or the Neocons invaded Iraq just for oil or just because they hate brown people. If that was true we'd be carpet bombing the place. No, instead we actually do care about the Iraqis and hence we are willing to go through a ton of trouble to minimize collateral damage.

{"commentId":451485,"threadId":"64292","contentId":"499375","authorDomain":"thevineofhob"}
  • 3 votes
#10.3 - Fri Dec 29, 2006 9:47 PM EST
{"commentId":451748,"authorDomain":"jimdent"}

No, it was successful because they didn't pussyfoot around with it. They went in and wiped them out. Terrorists only respect blunt force.

Otto, check your zipper, your non-military mind is showing :-D The Ethiopians went against Somali defensive positions. A better analogy to Somalia would be the US invasion of Iraq, where superior forces defeated inferior defensive forces. If you would be kind enough to call the Generals up and point out the insurgents defensive positions for them, we could overwhelm and destroy them and our boys can be home by Spring Break. Whats that you say? Insurgents don't fight from defensive positions? Damn, guess that's why it's so hard to stop the little cretins, they attack, then melt back into the rest of the population where they're undetectable. As Adam correctly points out, we could bomb the little buggers into oblivion... but that's not really the American way considering you would probably kill ten to twenty innocents for every insurgent. Military tactician is not included on your resume I suspect....

Killfile, good article. Unfortunately, I think the window of opportunity for your plan has passed. Iraq has degenerated into a tit for tat civil war. Even if you got all the political leaders to agree to this, the revenge killings would continue. It would require the support of the major holy men from all three sects, an end of interference from Iran and Syria, and a willingness from the insurgents to stop killing just to destabilize the government..... Looks to me like it's past the point of being able to accomplishing that.

{"commentId":451748,"threadId":"64292","contentId":"499375","authorDomain":"jimdent"}
  • 3 votes
#10.4 - Sat Dec 30, 2006 12:46 AM EST
{"commentId":452427,"authorDomain":"theottoshow"}

Jim -

Thanks for the expert analysis but instead of taking yet another position that explains why terrorists just had it so tough and how Ethiopians got one up on 'em, why don't explain why it didn't succeed which is what this little discussion was addressing? I'm aware that we are fighting from a tippie-toe position which is kind of the point.

{"commentId":452427,"threadId":"64292","contentId":"499375","authorDomain":"theottoshow"}
  • 1 vote
#10.5 - Sat Dec 30, 2006 2:02 PM EST
{"commentId":453300,"authorDomain":"insight"}
Guido SohneDeleted
{"commentId":454884,"authorDomain":"Cassandra"}

It's the American people who stay their hand. We would never accept their killing untold civilians just to wipe out the terrorists. They deal with political realities, too, you know. If the majority of the American people think Bush has done badly already, what do you think the political result would be if he send in the planes to carpet bomb large areas of the country just to control terrorists?

{"commentId":454884,"threadId":"64292","contentId":"499375","authorDomain":"Cassandra"}
    #10.7 - Mon Jan 1, 2007 6:09 PM EST
    Reply
    {"commentId":450794,"authorDomain":"kurtstack"}

    Excellent article. It's nice to see that somebody is actually presenting some alternative strategies and solutions to the Iraq occupation. I think it could work, but many more details would have to be ironed out. It is certainly something the administration should be considering. I hope they can throw their pride aside and look at some alternative solutions. It's never been clear to me what the administration's objective is in Iraq. This would at least provide them with a clear objective. Then we would have a tangible goal to strive for.

    {"commentId":450794,"threadId":"64292","contentId":"499375","authorDomain":"kurtstack"}
    • 3 votes
    Reply#11 - Fri Dec 29, 2006 1:46 PM EST
    {"commentId":450842,"authorDomain":"firsty"}

    i recently seeded this article (link to goes to seeded article, not my article).

    it talks about the myth of sectarian conflict, the reality of new alliances being created in iraq that arent explained by western media, and the US administration's stubborn refusal to acknowledge reality.

    it ends:

    The newly formed coalitions prove sectarianism is not at the root of the conflict in Iraq. Sectarian and religious differences are not splitting the country. Thus, it's clear that the "80% solution" will have no impact and will not work, nor will any other sectarian-based response.

    The main issue that is splitting Iraqis is the presence of the occupation, and that's why more than 87% of the Iraqi people, and a majority of the country's politicians, believe that the first step in dealing with the Iraqi-Iraqi conflict is pulling out the U.S. and coalition troops and ending the occupation.

    personally, i feel a "surge" is a politically correct (literally) way of saying, "escalation". once in, it will be very hard to get those extra troops out. and i doubt that any plan initiated by the US administration will be flexible enough to be able to handle even short-term unforeseens, further entrenching the "surge".

    i believe strongly that the solution must involve the international community and the iraqis. even the research and decision-making process must include groups beside the US. a table made up of half iraqis, 1/4 international/UN and 1/4 US sounds like a good place to start.

    {"commentId":450842,"threadId":"64292","contentId":"499375","authorDomain":"firsty"}
    • 4 votes
    Reply#12 - Fri Dec 29, 2006 2:15 PM EST
    {"commentId":451768,"authorDomain":"jimdent"}

    personally, i feel a "surge" is a politically correct (literally) way of saying, "escalation". once in, it will be very hard to get those extra troops out.

    Give that man a ceeegaaar!!

    "Escalation" has all the ghosts of Johnson, Nixon, and Vietnam swirling around it. And if you read your history books, the "escalation" then was supposed to be a temporary one... kinda like a surge... Surge has always struck me as a "Rovian" way of not saying what it really is, an escalation. Bonus points for Firsty!!

    {"commentId":451768,"threadId":"64292","contentId":"499375","authorDomain":"jimdent"}
    • 3 votes
    #12.1 - Sat Dec 30, 2006 1:04 AM EST
    {"commentId":452288,"authorDomain":"firsty"}

    thanks jim. i know, i know, i'm assuming the worst. but i've spent the past 7 weeks up all nite trying to find where something bush did turned out in any way for the better or even edged towards something positive, or where his predictions came true, and all i have are sunken eyes and a worn-out desk chair, and the people at the library think i'm insane.

    {"commentId":452288,"threadId":"64292","contentId":"499375","authorDomain":"firsty"}
    • 4 votes
    #12.2 - Sat Dec 30, 2006 12:23 PM EST
    {"commentId":453310,"authorDomain":"insight"}
    Guido SohneDeleted
    {"commentId":453539,"authorDomain":"dcuben"}

    Jim, I had wondered if those similarities were eluding this generation, or if they were just so painfully obvious that no one felt the need to mention them... so thanks.

    Instead of repeating that old saw about "those that don't learn from history...," perhaps I'll just send Bush my old copy of A Prayer for Owen Meany. Do you think he'd "get it?"

    {"commentId":453539,"threadId":"64292","contentId":"499375","authorDomain":"dcuben"}
    • 3 votes
    #12.4 - Sun Dec 31, 2006 1:32 PM EST
    {"commentId":454248,"authorDomain":"jimdent"}

    I really can't imagine Bush reading any book that would cause him to question his faith or the belief that he alone is the correct one..... So... having not bothered to read past the first chapter of your loaner, no he probably wouldn't "get it"...
    I have a long list of books I'd like him to read. Starting with 365 Days, by Ronald J. Glasser. Something to strip away the layers of insulation that allows him to sleep well at night....

    {"commentId":454248,"threadId":"64292","contentId":"499375","authorDomain":"jimdent"}
    • 2 votes
    #12.5 - Mon Jan 1, 2007 3:01 AM EST
    Reply
    {"commentId":450899,"authorDomain":"breacadh"}

    Iraq as a US garrison state will not work, regardless of the number of troops committed. In the north of Ireland, a few hundred IRA volunteers fought tens of thousands of Britain's finest troops and intelligence operations to a bloody standstill over thirty years' time. This despite the fact that nearly half the population in the North were in favor of the British occupation. Popular support of US occupation in Iraq is almost nil. As long as a hundred Iraqis remain alive in Iraq, ninety-eight will resist US occupation.

    The UN will not be seen by Iraqis as an impartial peacekeeper. The twelve years of -- genocidal? -- sanctions preceding Bush's war of aggression was 'brokered' by the UN under US control.

    If, however, the people of the US were to show the people of Iraq good faith by effecting a speedy removal of our troops and corporations from their land, and bringing the war criminals in our midst to trial, I think the people in the 'cradle of civilization' -- who first codified laws, invented writing, etc., -- might welcome an international presence as they sort out their affairs

    But, of course They Got Oil, so we can't allow anything like democracy to rear its head over there, right?
    The problem is not so much the deliberately-fomented sectarian violence in Iraq. The problem in essence is how do we control our own insatiable greedheads and their lackeys in government.

    I say we revoke Halliburton's corporate charter, liquidate its assets, and start a real reparations fund for the people of Iraq.

    {"commentId":450899,"threadId":"64292","contentId":"499375","authorDomain":"breacadh"}
    • 5 votes
    Reply#13 - Fri Dec 29, 2006 2:42 PM EST
    {"commentId":451159,"authorDomain":"thevineofhob"}

    It was Saddam Hussein's brutal dictatorship that maintained the fragile peace between the various sects and ethnic factions in Iraq.

    I have a problem with that notion. Is peace really just the absence of violent conflict, or is it the presence of justice? And yes I did just paraphrase a line from Air Force One.

    Unable and unwilling to accept the compromise of representative government, one faction must ultimately conquer and subordinate the others in what will likely prove to be a bloody, brutal, and lengthy civil war.

    I also disagree with this. Take a look at America, the left and the right certainly don't like each other very much and yet we still coexist. Stating that violence is the only solution for Iraqis is a bit Western-centric.

    Self governance was actually starting fairly well considering everything until al-Qaeda, yes that al-Qaeda, bombed the Al-Askari Mosque on February 22. If you look at all the statistics for acts of violence, deaths and whatnot, you will see that everything really got out of hand after that bombing. Iraq is not in "civil war" because the group driving most of the violence, al-Qaeda, is a foreign entity. If you stop al-Qaeda in Iraq, then you at least give a chance to peace. Any "solution" that does not take into account the role of al-Qaeda in Iraq is naive at best. Split Iraq and al-Qaeda will still encourage war between the mini-nations.

    It is also my understanding that most Iraqis don't want their nation split. It would be quite unilateral of us to force the splitting of Iraq when the people of Iraq are very much against it.

    That isn't even considering how the surrounding nations would feel towards such a plan. Turkey, one of our closer allies in the region, is very much against any kind of plan splitting Iraq because they feel that if the Kurds in Iraq were given their own state it could very likely drive the Kurds in Turkey to rebel and attempt to join with the new Kurd state.

    There is also the question of Iran and whether they would take advantage of divided Iraq by "annexing" part of it into their own country for "security reasons".

    The only real long-term solution is to drive al-Qaeda from Iraq and then let the people decide. Remember, most of the people in Iraq are very much peaceful and just want to live their lives. It is only a small percentage who are actively engaged in violence and a great deal of them are only driven to it by the encouragement and actions of al-Qaeda.

    {"commentId":451159,"threadId":"64292","contentId":"499375","authorDomain":"thevineofhob"}
    • 3 votes
    Reply#14 - Fri Dec 29, 2006 5:23 PM EST
    {"commentId":451190,"authorDomain":"vassleer"}

    Iraq is not in "civil war" because the group driving most of the violence, al-Qaeda, is a foreign entity.

    Al-Qaeda may have spurred the violence with the bombing (which I am not even sure they took credit for). But the violence has escalated to a self-sustaining level now between the two religious sects in Iraq...making it a civil war.

    Iraqi nationals are now killing other Iraqi nationals, and that constitutes a civil war.

    If you stop al-Qaeda in Iraq,

    And how does the U.S. do this? Our military has been trying to stamp out Al-Qaeda for 5 years and have not yet succeeded.

    {"commentId":451190,"threadId":"64292","contentId":"499375","authorDomain":"vassleer"}
    • 2 votes
    #14.1 - Fri Dec 29, 2006 5:44 PM EST
    Reply
    {"commentId":451184,"authorDomain":"vassleer"}

    The only real long-term solution is to drive al-Qaeda from Iraq and then let the people decide

    What makes you think the civil war will stop if Al-Qaeda is driven out? Or even that we could drive them completely out?

    The violence has escalated to the point where two religious sects are killing each other with Americans standing between them. I don't know that there is anything that we can do to stop that now.

    great deal of them are only driven to it by the encouragement and actions of al-Qaeda.

    Al-Qaeda only drives the Sunni insurgency (and that only partially). The Shiite militias and kill squads have nothing to do with the Sunnis in Al-Qaeda. Keep in mind that the Shiites were brutalized for years by the Sunni Baathists under Saddam, so they have reasons all their own for committing violence.

    {"commentId":451184,"threadId":"64292","contentId":"499375","authorDomain":"vassleer"}
    • 3 votes
    Reply#15 - Fri Dec 29, 2006 5:39 PM EST
    {"commentId":451317,"authorDomain":"surya"}

    Killfile, great article. This idea is actually similar to one I proposed (to anyone who would listen -- in other words, no one), even back before the original invasion.

    People have quite correctly pointed out some of the huge challenges that would be faced, but that doesn't make it a bad idea.

    One problem would be the terrible reputation and lack of credibility the UN seems to have in the US. The Bush administration and the commercial media have done a huge demolition job on it. Despite this, I still think it's the only organisation for the task.

    Bush displaying the required wisdom and humility is also unlikley. Maybe he needs an epiphany.

    {"commentId":451317,"threadId":"64292","contentId":"499375","authorDomain":"surya"}
    • 3 votes
    Reply#16 - Fri Dec 29, 2006 7:18 PM EST
    {"commentId":451608,"authorDomain":"mooninbluewater"}

    According to a lengthy speech by Sen. Joe Biden (D-Del) in New Hampshire that I picked up on CSPAN, this is more or less what is in the Iraqi constitution, albeit as a weak Federal system in which the central governement provides pretty much only for foreign affairs, national defense, and distribution of oil revenue.

    {"commentId":451608,"threadId":"64292","contentId":"499375","authorDomain":"mooninbluewater"}
      Reply#17 - Fri Dec 29, 2006 10:52 PM EST
      {"commentId":451621,"authorDomain":"mooninbluewater"}

      According to Sen.Joe Biden (D-Del.) in a lengthy speech picked up by CSPAN last week, this is more or less what the current Iraqi constitution says. It defines the government as a weak Federation of three states, with the central government only handling foreign policy, national defense (e.g., against foreign invasion) and distribution of oil revenue. The real sticking point among the elected reps (as opposed to the militia, the police, the insurgents, etc.) appears to be the oil revenue (surprise!).

      {"commentId":451621,"threadId":"64292","contentId":"499375","authorDomain":"mooninbluewater"}
      • 3 votes
      Reply#18 - Fri Dec 29, 2006 10:59 PM EST
      {"commentId":451631,"authorDomain":"mooninbluewater"}

      Additional point of order. I'm a newbie here, and may be overlooking something obvious. This appears to be an opinion piece from somewhere. What is the source?

      {"commentId":451631,"threadId":"64292","contentId":"499375","authorDomain":"mooninbluewater"}
      • 1 vote
      Reply#19 - Fri Dec 29, 2006 11:04 PM EST
      {"commentId":451665,"authorDomain":"spiffie"}

      The author is Killfile.

      {"commentId":451665,"threadId":"64292","contentId":"499375","authorDomain":"spiffie"}
      • 1 vote
      #19.1 - Fri Dec 29, 2006 11:27 PM EST
      {"commentId":452664,"authorDomain":"killfile"}

      I'm going to go ahead and take that as a complement Moon :)

      Yes, I'm the author of the piece in question. Everyone has a different style around here. I've often been told I have a pleasing one, but I don't believe I've ever been mistaken for a professional. Thanks!

      {"commentId":452664,"threadId":"64292","contentId":"499375","authorDomain":"killfile"}
      • 1 vote
      #19.2 - Sat Dec 30, 2006 6:18 PM EST
      {"commentId":453381,"authorDomain":"insight"}
      Guido SohneDeleted
      {"commentId":454357,"authorDomain":"mooninbluewater"}

      Killfile - haven't been around long enough to have a sense of the quality of writers, etc., but your article is thoughtful and well reasoned, although I think not ultimately feasible. In the end, it's up to the Iraqi's to resolve the political issues, and they will get "the government they deserve," as we all do. Whatever form that takes is none of our business, IMHO. The military issues, the "surge" trial balloon being sent up around here (I live in DC) hasn't a hope of success, I think (see post below) -- which means that's probably exactly what Shrub will decide to do.

      {"commentId":454357,"threadId":"64292","contentId":"499375","authorDomain":"mooninbluewater"}
      • 1 vote
      #19.4 - Mon Jan 1, 2007 8:23 AM EST
      {"commentId":454400,"authorDomain":"killfile"}

      Moon In Blue Water,

      You're probably correct in your assessment of my "plan" though I'd like to think that it's failing lie in an inability to get other's to go along with it rather than some glaring issue with what it is intended. I do belive that Iraq lacks any sort of national cohesion and that it will likely end up split up should the US leave it to its own devices. I also think that by expediting that process we can save a lot of lives, but that you're correct - the international community will probably have none of it.

      {"commentId":454400,"threadId":"64292","contentId":"499375","authorDomain":"killfile"}
      • 1 vote
      #19.5 - Mon Jan 1, 2007 9:49 AM EST
      Reply
      {"commentId":451740,"authorDomain":"categorythree"}

      bomb them out of existence, i mean why not we just executed their previous head of state, why not just blow the whole country off the map?

      {"commentId":451740,"threadId":"64292","contentId":"499375","authorDomain":"categorythree"}
      • 1 vote
      Reply#20 - Sat Dec 30, 2006 12:39 AM EST
      {"commentId":451844,"authorDomain":"lucidweyland"}

      Because some of us still value human life.

      {"commentId":451844,"threadId":"64292","contentId":"499375","authorDomain":"lucidweyland"}
      • 2 votes
      #20.1 - Sat Dec 30, 2006 2:25 AM EST
      {"commentId":452074,"authorDomain":"mooninbluewater"}

      And even if we don't, we value mega-barrels of oil reserves that would become inaccessible.

      {"commentId":452074,"threadId":"64292","contentId":"499375","authorDomain":"mooninbluewater"}
      • 1 vote
      #20.2 - Sat Dec 30, 2006 9:07 AM EST
      Reply
      {"commentId":451848,"authorDomain":"lucidweyland"}

      The main problem with changing the political boundaries, as I see it is, is that the wealth isn't neatly geographically divided. If you try to draw the lines in a way that allocates the Oil in a "fair" way, then you have a rather awkward split.

      I'm not particularly saying that it's impossible, who knows, maybe it would work out. Unfortunately it's such a complicated proposition, requiring so much political negotiation that initiating such a plan at this time would take years. You'd have to negotiate with the Sunni's, Kurd's, and Shiite's, (each of which factions may not have full control over it's members), and negotiate with the UN.

      If we'd started working on that plan a long time ago we probably would have been better off.

      {"commentId":451848,"threadId":"64292","contentId":"499375","authorDomain":"lucidweyland"}
      • 2 votes
      Reply#21 - Sat Dec 30, 2006 2:28 AM EST
      {"commentId":451909,"authorDomain":"melgaard"}

      Dear Killfile, great article but while I agree the map of Iraq must be redrawn I would not put much faith in the UN. The UN does not have a great track record on stopping genocide. The record of the UN is much like the League of Nations when it comes to genocide or other forms of high severity antisocial behavior by states. To play devil's advocate, the surge could work if (really big if)they can crush the leadership of the insurgency. This will probably not happen if only because Bush isn't that lucky. Napoleon wanted marshals who were lucky Americans should want a president who is lucky.

      {"commentId":451909,"threadId":"64292","contentId":"499375","authorDomain":"melgaard"}
      • 1 vote
      Reply#22 - Sat Dec 30, 2006 3:40 AM EST
      {"commentId":452116,"authorDomain":"mooninbluewater"}

      A surge of the magnitudes thus far suggested by anyone -- the maximum I've seen being 50,000 -- will serve no useful purpose in resolving the conflict at all. It's about equivalent to airport passenger screening to prevent a terrorist strike or HOV lanes to address traffic congestion; it's purpose is to provide a visible sign that "we're doing something" but it won't appreciable address the problem.

      At this late date, the only two real stragtegies available are:

      1. A massive, coordinated effort involving the US, countries in the region, and the world community as a whole, or

      2. Get out completely with as much grace and as little collateral damage as possble.

      50,000? Phooey. Addressing the security aspects in Iraq would require more like 500,000 troops (Colin Powell's original estimate of the force required). We don't have them, so they have to come from others. And how they're deployed and used is critical. First and foremost, US troops have to get out of the policing business -- we're adding to the problem. Forces from the surrounding countries in the region should be deployed to protect sympathetic populations, e.g., Sunni countries like Syria and Saudia Arabia protecting Sunnis, Shiite countries like Iran protecting Shiites, etc. Is this possible? Probably not, but nothing else is going to work until the Iraqi forces have been adequately developed (one of the major purposes US troops should be used for) which is at best two years away. Why would they want to help us? They don't, but they don't want the blowback from a widespread civil war in Iraq, either -- each has their own fears about it, but none of them, most especially Iran, will gain anything and many could find the instability sweeps away their own regimes.

      More importantly, we have to succeed on the social -- as opposed to political -- front. For Iraq to have a national identity, there has to be some benefit to the individual Iraqi family on a day to day basis. The government has to be seen to provide something useful -- protection from violence and reliable power, gasoline and water would be a good start -- or there is little for anyone to have allegiance to. This will take massive amounts of investment, at least $100 billion. And it will require extensive security measures to implement the infrastructure, another place where US troops should be deployed for perimeter control.
      Beyond the basics, Iraqis crave consumer goods and services. In a few areas where we have been successful (outside Baghdad) in getting the infrastructure in order, the first thing that happens is an immediate demand for consumer goods.

      The US government can't do this part alone, either. We need to get international partners like China, Japan and the EU to pony up if they want the oil that otherwise may not flow for years if the instability continues or worsens. China in particular would likely be susceptable to this reasoning, given the kind of investments they're making in other parts of the world. In addition, we need to leverage the corporate muscle of our economy. If Exxon and others want to avoid a windfall profits tax, they need to invest a substantial amount of their profits in reconstructing Iraq's oil industry, for example. If Wal-Mart wants to avoid anti-trust and other nasty measures the Dems are pre-disposed to consider in the new Congress, they need to go build a few dozen stores in Iraq. Two principles need to be followed in these efforts:

      1. The Iraqi central and regional governments must be the channel for the investments, both in terms of directing it and in determining priorities. Exxon needs to negotiate it's deal with the Iraqi government, not the US. Wal-Mart has to work with the regional governments in determining where and what to build and stock, at least at the beginning.

      2. Iraqis need to be the bulk of the labor force used in construction and operation of all of this. Yes, we have to provide western technology and expertise, but our primary purpose should be to employ and train Iraqis. Jobs are the most important way of keeping people off the street and out of trouble.

      Can all of this be accomplished? In the abstract, maybe. In reality it seems highly unlikely. And with the current posture of this administration, it's impossible and neither the posture nor the administration is likely to change for two years, by which time the solution will be mooted by events, I'd guess. Soooooooo....

      Option 2 seems the most achievable, whatever the downside. A surge might be helpful in accomplishing an efficient withdrawal, but it won't do a thing to improve matters or lead to any long-term "victory."

      {"commentId":452116,"threadId":"64292","contentId":"499375","authorDomain":"mooninbluewater"}
      • 2 votes
      Reply#23 - Sat Dec 30, 2006 9:48 AM EST
      {"commentId":465662,"authorDomain":"profwork"}

      The social and economic development goal provides a different perspective, where success is not military victory but measured in terms of the well-being of the Iraqi people. Therefore, your cogent and savvy comment carries weight.

      Obviously, Kagan of AEI and the next wave of neocon strategy (They will never quit as long as the money rolls in!) will stress "victory," and Bush (Captain Queeg) will embrace the latest twist in twisted "thinking." However, if bloggers and others push the social and economic development goals, the conversation could morph. Recall that most of Iraq is pretty stable while media and US strategy focuses on insurgent areas.

      For a related analysis, try Krugman's wry Quagmire of the Vanities or see my seed on this topic.

      {"commentId":465662,"threadId":"64292","contentId":"499375","authorDomain":"profwork"}
      • 2 votes
      #23.1 - Mon Jan 8, 2007 10:42 PM EST
      Reply
      {"commentId":469102,"authorDomain":"paskaa-tuutissa"}

      Wouldn't it be pretty damn funny that after years of war and death the americans would go back home and as a replacement the Iraqis get Wal-Mart - The great symbol of american consumption habits.

      lol

      {"commentId":469102,"threadId":"64292","contentId":"499375","authorDomain":"paskaa-tuutissa"}
        Reply#24 - Wed Jan 10, 2007 6:46 PM EST
        {"commentId":469126,"authorDomain":"mooninbluewater"}

        I heard on C-SPAN an in-depth interview with Petraeus, who had some success in Mosel in getting the basic infrastructure functioning and worked well with the Iraqis there. He said the first thing that happened once they had the lights on and water running reasonable reliably was an explosion of demand for consumer goods, the ordinary stuff like tp, kitchen stuff, clothes, and -- of course -- cosmetics (how could there be such demand for cosmetics when so many of the women wear burkhas (sp?) is beyond me). I think they'd love to have some Wal-Marts, that's why I mentioned them specifically.

        {"commentId":469126,"threadId":"64292","contentId":"499375","authorDomain":"mooninbluewater"}
        • 2 votes
        #24.1 - Wed Jan 10, 2007 6:55 PM EST
        Reply
        {"commentId":469422,"authorDomain":"profwork"}

        Moon, I've been saying this in many comments. Build on and secure the peaceful areas, provide working capital, and watch the party roll. Economists identify multipliers and accelerators, once the economy commences. Infrastructure, middle class, a bourgeois society, if you will, but not the war-torn Bush hell. Success breeds success and will expand, providing a potent material incentive to get stuff together. Bush militarism evokes downward spiral of hatred.

        Interpret Iraq from perspective of Iraq people, not political imperatives of failed Bush administration: peace (aka security), open society, prosperity. Basic Bush flaw: It's about me/us rather than the Iraq people.

        {"commentId":469422,"threadId":"64292","contentId":"499375","authorDomain":"profwork"}
        • 1 vote
        Reply#25 - Wed Jan 10, 2007 10:25 PM EST
        {"canLink":false,"threadId":"64292","isPrivate":false}
        Leave a Comment:
        You're in Easy Mode. If you prefer, you can use XHTML Mode instead.
        As a new user, you may notice a few temporary content restrictions. Click here for more info.
        {"threadId":"64292","contentId":"499375"}
        Start TrackingStart Tracking
        Stop TrackingStop Tracking