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KILLFILE

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Epicurean Intelligentsia
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Users As Editors? How About Users As Panelists? Can Social Networks Identify/Create Quality Content?

Tue Dec 4, 2007 8:42 AM EST
technology, new-york, msnbc, new-york-city, digg, social-networks, peta, astroturf, astroturfing, siia, new-york-times-refugees, software-and-information-industry-association
By Killfile

SIIA Logo used shamelessly and without permission. Everyone likes free advertising.

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As MSNBC's acquisition of Newsvine demonstrates, social networks are gaining influence in the national media. As raw information sources grow, the ability of any individual or even any corporate entity to adequately sift through the rising mountain of data is fast diminishing. Social networks offer an advantageous and cost effective solution to this problem of scalability, but present problems of their own. Can media outlets count upon the crowd to produce consistently high-quality information? A quick spin through Digg and its sister networks reveals a conglomeration of articles on niche technical specialties scattered amidst radical political literature and an assortment of amusing videos, images, and other diversions. While social media has proved itself as an enjoyable means to wile away the workday, its ability to stand alongside more traditional methods of content identification and production is in considerably more question.

On Wednesday, December the 5th, this columnist and influential contributors and entrepreneurs in social media enterprises will participate in a Software and Information Industry Association panel on the role of users as editors in socially powered media. The panel will address questions from the mundane to the subtle and complex but will focus primarily upon the ability of social communities to adequately differentiate quality content from... well... the other sort.

The problem of content identification is one that is as much software as it is community culture. Generally speaking, social systems rely on votes - a proactive form of user moderation - to promote the "good" content over the "bad." Vote are purely normative judgments, entirely unshackled from the actual type of content involved. For networks like Digg this is ideal. Lacking a specific focus beyond that brought by the community, Digg's software seeks to identify simply those links and sites that the Digg community likes. The actual thematic of the content is itself irrelevant so long as it draws enough votes.

While some other networks mimic Digg's model, most recognize that the market for a general amusement link trading service is pretty well filled. Other more niche services have arisen to fill perceived gaps inDigg's coverage focusing on a wide verity of subjects. It is this subject mater focus that is problematic. Software is incapable of making the subtle distinctions necessary to differentiate between a brilliant political cartoon on the state of the Iraqi insurgency and - for example - a collection of kitten photographs with intentionally misspelled but humorous captions. While the community that grows around a particular niche social network is generally enthused and dedicated to the desired content profile, as the community grows and the site gains popularity it inevitably attracts new members from other more general interest sites.

Social media tends to have a "long tail" as the statisticians would put it. A very few users make up the power-users of a given network while the overwhelming majority simply read with no inclination towards more active participation. Somewhere between these two groups, however, is a group of would-be power users some of whom will seek prominence on newer and less established networks.

The alignment of these circumstances creates an influx of general interest posters to a traditionally niche network. General Interest users typically mimic the standards of content set forth by the major players in social bookmarking and the result is a dilution of what the older and more niche users would consider "good content." While software can help enormously with this conflict, the real resolution must come from the community. A clash of ideologies is almost inevitable once a niche network takes off and to the victor goes the soul of the community itself.

Compounding the problem of identification after the boom is the issue of astroturfing. As networks grow their ability to shove content in front of millions of faces expands. Advertisers, marketers, and other less scrupulous businessmen are quick to take notice of this untapped power. Networks enjoy a trusted status amongst their members, provide a global distribution system, and are typically free to use - making the decision to co-opt them for commercial purposes a very easy one. Because the more savvy abusers of the system make some attempt to hide such activities under the guise of a legitimate user's "grass-roots" support for a product or company, the practice is sometimes referred to as "astroturfing."

Astroturfing is a real threat to social networks, but unlike the clash of cultures, it is something that far more expressly involves the network's business interests. Administrators are more commonly used to deal with astroturfers and while very effective, such measures oftentimes overstep reasonable bounds and draw fire from the community at large. Digg , by way of example, is extraordinarily overzealous when it comes to account deletion policies for perceived astroturfing and maintains a "ban now ask questions later policy" on the subject.

While Digg might like the answers to be simple, they rarely are. Newsvine in particular hosts an interesting example of how astroturfing can turn into something altogether different. While there are perhaps several thousand spammer and advertiser accounts blocked, banned, and deleted from Newsvine's system one attempt at astroturfing has become an unexpected fixture in the community. PETA, the Norfolk VA based animal rights organization, maintains an account on Newsvine for the publication of press releases, opinion articles, and the like. While the published content is classic AstroTurf, the organization is up-front about who they are and what they are doing and, more importantly, they interact with the community openly and enthusiastically, answering questions, debating issues, and contributing to the overall atmosphere of camaraderie and knowledge.

All of which gives some hope for the future. There is a lot to be said for an open dialogue between companies, special interest groups, and the general public. Maybe social networks can be a place for that to happen. One thing is for sure, something like that would certainly meet any standard for "good content."

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  • Public Discussion (62)
Killfile

I'm going to post a few comments here which contain some of the questions that we'll be talking about on the SIIA panel. I'm doing this because... well... I really do think this social content thing works pretty well. I'd bet that the Newsvine community has more to add on this topic than I do and I'm interested to hear what it is you have to say. I can't promise that I'll remember to name-drop appropriately on the panel, but I will try.

That said, if you want to discuss the panel itself this is probably a good place to do it. It will be webcast but SIIA wants some of your money to watch it. I'll post the link here, but I promise I won't get my feelings hurt if no one watches.

You'll be able to watch the webcast tomorrow through an as-yet-unreleased link from this website.

Also, if you're a Viner in NYC and aren't doing anything this evening, feel free to drop me an email.

  • 2 votes
Reply#1 - Tue Dec 4, 2007 8:58 AM EST
jblossom

Killfile,

A great overview of Newsvine's strengths and positioning in helping people to identify quality content and to generate quality content in Newsvine's columns and comments. I think that Newsvine is perfecting a formula that is moving closer to how people will create news in the years to come. It's not a perfect model yet, but it's getting there, thanks to 'Viners like you.

  • 2 votes
#1.1 - Tue Dec 4, 2007 10:31 AM EST
Scott (Scoop) Butki

While Digg might like the answers to be simple, they rarely are. Newsvine in particular hosts an interesting example of how astroturfing can turn into something altogether different. While there are perhaps several thousand spammer and advertiser accounts blocked, banned, and deleted from Newsvine's system one attempt at astroturfing has become an unexpected fixture in the community. PETA, the Norfolk VA based animal rights organization, maintains an account on Newsvine for the publication of press releases, opinion articles, and the like. While the published content is classic AstroTurf, the organization is up-front about who they are and what they are doing and, more importantly, they interact with the community openly and enthusiastically, answering questions, debating issues, and contributing to the overall atmosphere of camaraderie and knowledge.

I have concerns – I posted questions at both the Peta column from a few weeks ago and a New Media Alliance piece last week. It sure seemed that it was spam – nobody came back to respond to the remarks.

I participated in both in hopes that this would be true

But saw no evidence of interaction and answering of questions.
Good luck with your presentation. Knock 'em dead.

  • 5 votes
#1.2 - Thu Dec 6, 2007 5:00 PM EST
Reply
Killfile

First Question:

Tell us about your publishing platform from your own perspective: what does it do, how to editors use it, who's using it?

Rather than answer this in depth, since it's a subject we're all familiar with, I'd really appreciate thoughts on this instead: in 25 words or less, what makes Newsvine awesome?

  • 2 votes
Reply#2 - Tue Dec 4, 2007 9:02 AM EST
winsomecowboy

It's COH. It reinforces and empowers participants towards listening and respecting opinions other than their own. Measured and respectful discourse replaces a culture of shouting.

  • 4 votes
#2.1 - Tue Dec 4, 2007 1:15 PM EST
Killfile

I hadn't considered the sort of ground rules that the staff might lay down at first. Good point winsomecowboy.

  • 2 votes
#2.2 - Tue Dec 4, 2007 1:57 PM EST
gladbutterfly

I agree, Winsome. The COH is like the constitution. It lets everyone know the basic rules of civility that are operative in the community. It is the basis for criticism and carries the force of law as well, since you can get kicked out. Each user interprets the rules him or herself, in the process of interacting. And each user can criticize another on the basis of the rules; hence, order arises spontaneously out of the interaction, so long as most people have goodwill. That is the other most important feature of Newsvine: goodwill. That depends upon each of us alone.

  • 2 votes
#2.3 - Tue Dec 4, 2007 2:12 PM EST
Killfile

You'll all be glad to know that I got the opportunity to toss the COH - in all of its enumerated glory - up on the screen for the audience.

Of particular interest seemed to be the fact that the COH is so intrinsic to the community as a whole that we don't even refer to it by it's full name anymore and that we cite it by number rather than expressly stating our objections.

  • 2 votes
#2.4 - Thu Dec 6, 2007 5:06 PM EST
Reply
Killfile

Second Question(s)

What to you is the most clear benefit of having users being able to create their own editorial content via social media technologies? What's the real-world plus for people consuming content created by a social media community?

And related to that...

What are your real success stories for users as editors? What can we point to and say, "Yeah, that really does work, doesn't it?

    Reply#3 - Tue Dec 4, 2007 9:05 AM EST
    Redruby

    Diversity

    • 1 vote
    #3.1 - Tue Dec 4, 2007 9:16 PM EST
    gladbutterfly

    What's the real-world plus for people consuming content created by a social media community?

    Getting news selected by a variety of interests and opinions, plus original material as well means that I feel much more grounded in what is actually going on in the world than when I was relying on mainstream media entirely for my news. Having a community of intelligent laypeople to discuss the issues with means that ideas can be developed and decisions about appropriate action made as a group with input that sometimes changes one's opinion, and that's a good thing.

    • 1 vote
    #3.2 - Tue Dec 4, 2007 9:42 PM EST
    Reply
    Killfile

    Third Question

    This is a short one but one we talk about a lot on Newsvine:

    What features and community management techniques are most important in ensuring that there is quality content in a social media community?

      Reply#4 - Tue Dec 4, 2007 9:05 AM EST
      Killfile

      Fourth Question

      This is touched on a little in the article but there is a lot more to say on the topic:

      What is truth when social media communities enable a wide variety of people to try to create the truth in their own image? When we have governmental, corporate and political organizations trying to spin the truth via social media ("astroturfing"), do we wind up with journalism and reference materials that we can trust or something less?

      • 1 vote
      Reply#5 - Tue Dec 4, 2007 9:07 AM EST
      Redruby

      Truth is a relative term. I'm not sure we can turn off our individual need to scruitinize any information we come into contact with. What is true at Newsvine is there is a diverse community of opinion through which we come to sample many versions of reality allowing us to make a more informed decision about what a particular truth may be. Corporate-governmental-political media does not offer that diversity of thought and perspective. We must always remain alert and curious regardless of the media.

      • 5 votes
      #5.1 - Tue Dec 4, 2007 1:20 PM EST
      ShaunV

      ...do we wind up with journalism and reference materials that we can trust or something less?

      I agree with Redruby, IMO, we should always question media reports, whatever their origin.

      I don't think that anyone can fool an intelligent reader by just proclaiming an opinion or false information as truth. There will always be alert readers who will eventually blow the whistle.

      Still I do think, as your question appears to imply, that one weakness of social networking sites, regarding original content and being seen as a "go to" source, or a source that one can trust, is that there is absolutely no scrutiny of information that is presented.

      IMO, this may be a weakness rather than a strength, as far as original news type content that seeks to present information rather than simply an opinion.

      Conversely, one of the strengths of the main stream media is that the writer's work is reviewed by editors and copy editors who ensure that sources are credible and facts are checked.

      Even then mistakes happen, but the sense is that such a source can be more trusted than can a blog or site that has no oversight.

      • 3 votes
      #5.2 - Tue Dec 4, 2007 4:37 PM EST
      Reply
      Killfile

      Fifth Question

      What is very apparent in any publishing environment is that not all editors are created equal - some are better than others. How does your own service - or another service that you admire - do a great job of helping the best editors develop the most influence over the content of a social media product?

      • 1 vote
      Reply#6 - Tue Dec 4, 2007 9:08 AM EST
      Killfile

      Sixth Question(s)

      Another set of related questions:

      What will it take for social media to rise to a level of quality that it will rival mainstream publications - or has it already done so? What inherent advantages does social media have in editing content that mainstream publications just can't match?

      What to you is the next logical step in developing quality social media? What tools, techniques or services are likely to shift social media up to an even higher level of respected, "go to" quality?

      • 1 vote
      Reply#7 - Tue Dec 4, 2007 9:09 AM EST
      ShaunV

      ...that it will rival mainstream publications -

      IMO, the aggregation of various forms of news already provides the "respected go to quality.

      Interesting article.

      A lot of questions have been raised that I don't feel I presently have valid answers to, at this point.

      I do think that as competition grows for this platform, the owners will need to find unique ways to hold onto members or to attract viewers.

      • 2 votes
      #7.1 - Tue Dec 4, 2007 10:01 AM EST
      Killfile

      For "this platform" i.e. social media as a whole or "this platform" as in our little niche of the news community?

      • 1 vote
      #7.2 - Tue Dec 4, 2007 1:58 PM EST
      ShaunV

      The platform I am referring to is social media as whole.

      IMO, businesses that survive over time realize that they need to evolve at some point.

      The evolution, IMO, needs to be a progressive process, one that eases the members into the change rather than just slam dunks them into a new atmosphere.

      IMO, if the changes are too rapid people become confused, frustrated and lose interest.

      • 1 vote
      #7.3 - Tue Dec 4, 2007 4:25 PM EST
      Reply
      Marilyn L

      The mix: to be successful (at least in terms of the dreaded/loved Leaderboard) takes a mix of authoring, seeding, commenting, and popularity in aforementioned activities.

      Newsvine has also benefited from gaining a stable of well-read and capable folks, just like you, killfile ; ) My contention is that the mix I reference above encourages just that, a community of intelligent, caring readers/writers/lurkers.

      Zut alors: this should be in answer to Question One.

      • 4 votes
      Reply#8 - Tue Dec 4, 2007 9:09 AM EST
      Killfile

      Would you say the leaderboard and the careful selection of metrics that determine placement upon it is a transformative influence on Newsvine? Are users driven to be more well-read, capable, intelligent, caring, etc by virtue of the competition that the leaderboard encourages?

      • 2 votes
      #8.1 - Tue Dec 4, 2007 9:13 AM EST
      Marilyn L

      From my own experience, the answer is a big yes. Both the Vineacity metric (which encourages new Viners to broaden their activities to include commenting, voting, politeness, etc.) and the Leaderboard encourage a multidimensional experience on the site. Not simply vote up/vote down. Newsvine takes more, gives more, IMHO, and figured out a relatively gentle manner of encouraging good behavior. It also makes us, the users, responsible for encouraging others to contribute better.

      • 3 votes
      #8.2 - Tue Dec 4, 2007 9:19 AM EST
      Pamela Drew

      Are users driven to be more well-read, capable, intelligent, caring, etc by virtue of the competition that the leaderboard encourages?

      I don't know if that's a net benefit. I think it encourages a good amount of flame bait and stingy tendencies in the comment voting with folks withholding votes in lieu of Digg style bury powers.

      • 5 votes
      #8.3 - Tue Dec 4, 2007 2:14 PM EST
      pseudonihilist

      Competitiveness is, or should be seen as, antithetical to the nature of conversation and communication. Imagine a Vine on which no members were ever identified. Imagine a Vine within which there were no institutional memory. Ego is contrary to truth. Ego is contrary to the nature of the Idea, but conducive to community as something to be structured from the top down.

      • 2 votes
      #8.4 - Tue Dec 4, 2007 9:01 PM EST
      Reply
      Killfile

      Seventh (and Final) Question

      Where do you think social media will be in two years' time as a source of quality content? Will the bloom be off the rose or will it have transformed publishing as we know it?

        Reply#9 - Tue Dec 4, 2007 9:10 AM EST
        Redruby

        The question is how does one describe quality content. The richness of the diversity at Newsvine provides at one glance a front page that offers a Chomsky interview, a discussion of farm subsidies alongside an article about sexual fetishism. That's pretty rich discussion material. So, what's quality? Again, in a diverse community, one gets diverse responses. We don't have a one-size-fits-all situation. Defining quality becomes a fine line between discriminating along the lines of topic, intelligence and ability to communicate effectively. It seems to me that we can make our own decisions about what we want to read from the diverse offerings available.

        • 1 vote
        #9.1 - Tue Dec 4, 2007 1:26 PM EST
        Killfile

        I was trying to get at this point in the article but you sum it up nicely. "Quality" is different for Digg than it is for us. That's a problem sometimes because our cultures cross occasionally. When you see some of the Diggesq links on the NV front page, you're looking at quality content... just not the sort of quality that Newsvine generally caters towards.

        To use a print analogy - Playboy is generally considered to do some of the best erotica photography in the business. That's quality content. If a few frames of Miss December show up right before the lead editorial in the Atlantic Monthly, however.... is it still "quality content?"

        It certainly isn't the content the readers of the Atlantic buy the Atlantic to look at.

        • 1 vote
        #9.2 - Tue Dec 4, 2007 2:02 PM EST
        Redruby

        That's what makes a site like Newsvine special and worthy. The Atlantic has a reputation for a particular slant, as does Playboy. Newsvine appeals to those seeking diversity of opinion and content spaninng sources such as Vanity Fair, Village Voice, Der Spiegel, YouTube, Counter Punch and geek blogs . Perhaps quality borders on taste. Just about anything can be worthy of the time to read if it is not offensive but then again the slippery slope of definition comes into play. How does one define good taste so that it includes sexual fetishism (for example) and Chomsky? How does the notion of free speech impact quality in a news site? I don't think we have easy answers but the questions are important.

        Ah, I thought Playboy had good articles. ;-)

        • 2 votes
        #9.3 - Tue Dec 4, 2007 5:14 PM EST
        pseudonihilist

        Defining quality becomes a fine line between discriminating along the lines of topic, intelligence and ability to communicate effectively.

        Love is a rose but you better not pick it
        It only grows when it's on the vine.
        A handful of thorns and you'll know you've missed it
        You lose your love when you say the word "mine".

        - Neil Young

        • 3 votes
        #9.4 - Tue Dec 4, 2007 9:13 PM EST
        Scott (Scoop) Butki

        I was trying to get at this point in the article but you sum it up nicely. "Quality" is different for Digg than it is for us.

        That's quite true. I think another fact is that some come here to be educated and learn, some to have fun and some to debate and many of us want all of those things. That's why I put up this survey at one point to try to gauge why we come here. As I expected the answers are quite diverse.

        And so it makes sense that some view what news should be covered - or not covered - different as well.

        I don't think we can ever as a group agree on what
        the most important story or seed is - or even agree on what is and isn't quality - because we each want different things out of this site.

        • 2 votes
        #9.5 - Thu Dec 6, 2007 7:23 PM EST
        Reply
        Eric Atienza

        Software is incapable of making the subtle distinctions necessary to differentiate between a brilliant political cartoon on the state of the Iraqi insurgency and - for example - a collection of kitten photographs with intentionally misspelled buthumorous captions.

        I'm in your articlez, dilutin' your newz.

        • 12 votes
        Reply#10 - Tue Dec 4, 2007 9:26 AM EST
        Killfile

        Wow. Should have seen that one coming.

        • 5 votes
        #10.1 - Tue Dec 4, 2007 9:28 AM EST
        Reply
        stevetherobot

        You can see one approach at Plastic.com. User articles go into a queue where an editor checks it for spelling, grammer, formatting etc. Other users post feedback and vote on whether it should be posted to the frontpage. Based on the votes and feedback the editor either posts it or rejects it. Sometimes it is sent back with suggestions for improvements, sometimes it is simply rejected. It's not a perfect system, but it is one alternative that keeps out most of the junk.

        • 2 votes
        Reply#11 - Tue Dec 4, 2007 10:06 AM EST
        jblossom

        Not a bad way of doing things, but it doesn't seem to be gaining in popularity.

        I think that one distinction that seems to be true about social media and regular media is that regular media tries to create these fixed, perfectly polished pieces that can be mass-monetized relatively easily. Social media is more about the collaborative process of discovering and creating content, with the truth of a matter being not so much what the final object looks like as what's revealed in the process of creating that object. In Newsvine's instance, the "object" is not just the seed or the article but that core fixed content in combination with the comments and voting. What was "true" a few minutes ago may not be true a few moments from now as the article is expanded upon by comments or is re-prioritized as it's identified as inaccurate, inflammatory or added to groups where it gets a new level of meaning and participation.

        So bottom line, we want to keep junk out of Newsvine, but deciding what's junk together seems to be an active part of what keeps us open-minded as to what is and isn't junk.

        • 2 votes
        #11.1 - Tue Dec 4, 2007 10:38 AM EST
        ShaunV

        Sometimes it is sent back with suggestions for improvements, sometimes it is simply rejected.

        There are few social networking sites that presently do this.

        Interesting link, Steve.

        • 1 vote
        #11.2 - Tue Dec 4, 2007 5:03 PM EST
        Reply
        Matt Schwartz

        It's interesting this comes up on the same day a secret mailing list among Wikipedia's top administrators is disclosed. In any social group, especially one of larger size, there will be some who want to gain prominence. This circle will often work to keep others down. In Wikipedia's case it's been somewhat overt, but mostly subtle to observers.

        There's no such thing as a perfect system. But as our social networks grow larger and more influential it'll be even more difficult to prevent "gaming".

        • 2 votes
        Reply#12 - Tue Dec 4, 2007 11:23 AM EST
        Killfile

        There's no secret mailing list here on NV -- at least not that I'm on. I do chat with Mykola and Mr. Hobson from time to time though.

        I think you're right about preventing gaming and I fear that it'll come to the same end as copy protection and the war on drugs. So long as there's a compelling economic interest, defense will always be a few steps behind.

        • 1 vote
        #12.1 - Tue Dec 4, 2007 2:09 PM EST
        Reply
        Partisan Hack

        PETA, the Norfolk VA based animal rights organization, maintains an account on Newsvine for the publication of press releases, opinion articles, and the like. While the published content is classic AstroTurf, the organization is up-front about who they are and what they are doing and, more importantly, they interact with the community openly and enthusiastically, answering questions, debating issues, and contributing to the overall atmosphere of camaraderie and knowledge.

        A similar interesting addition is New Media Alliance, a PR firm for right-wing causes that posts pieces from "grass roots" contributors on Newsvine. Originally they were just posting links to content on one of their sites, but now they reproduce their articles in their entirety in Newsvine. They still have to be monitored for inaccurate content but much of what they produce is not much different than any other Newsvine member. The main problem that I see in this approach, though, is that because the individual contributors to NMA - if indeed they exist, it's hard for me to determine - are not members of Newsvine the dialog is in essence with NMA's PR experts, not "real people." So are we allowing them to buy credibility for their PR, and if so, is that OK as long as they're being honest about it? PETA makes no bones about who they are and why they're doing it, I am not so sure that the same can be said of NMA.

        • 3 votes
        Reply#13 - Tue Dec 4, 2007 11:50 AM EST
        winsomecowboy

        I share your concerns here. I would suggest a solution is to welcome individuals but collective PR astroturfers, Peta/NMA, [thats what they are to be blunt.] be accepted only as individuals and free to create a group that focus's on their chosen topics or political flavors.

        To have collectives welcomed as members dilutes the newsvine experience for me.
        It also insults my intelligence in the continued and longstanding corporate pretence of somehow containing character.
        Peta and NMA have objectives, they do not possess personalities but pretend to and that offends me.

        • 3 votes
        #13.1 - Tue Dec 4, 2007 1:27 PM EST
        Redruby

        Transparency is key.

        • 4 votes
        #13.2 - Tue Dec 4, 2007 1:28 PM EST
        Killfile

        I think the collectives bring an interesting element to the table but it does make it a little hard to know who you're talking to -- very much like the Newsvine Blog (except everyone knows who that is) now that I think about it.

        I mean, press releases are an established part of media -- why not social media? I like the idea that I can question these collectives, but I would be much happier with them if identities were made clear. It would certainly be nice to know, for example, that NMA will discuss articles but will turn the account over to the original author.

        • 1 vote
        #13.3 - Tue Dec 4, 2007 2:12 PM EST
        Pamela Drew

        winsomecowboy...Peta and NMA have objectives, they do not possess personalities but pretend to and that offends me.

        Groups are nothing more than a collection of like minded individuals. To me there's no good reason to have individuals separated when they write with their real names and stay focused on a single issue as the source of the material contributed. There's no doubt when you find an article or seed where it came from and that's a thousand times better to put a name, any name that reflects the source of opinion rather than the Monsanto bloggers and who knows what others who come in to do PR and act like it is an individual opinion.

        • 2 votes
        #13.4 - Tue Dec 4, 2007 2:51 PM EST
        Redruby

        I agree with you Winsome. I don't like groups. You don't know who you're talking to and why should one group be welcomed because they are more politically correct than another. A while ago I noticed the "Children's Alliance" as a Newsvine member. I happen to be a member and I wondered who would set themselves up as 'the voice' of such a group. I asked them a question about it in a comment and never heard again. I also notice Mother Jones (the publication) is a Newsvine member. Again, love that mag but I do feel we would all be better served if the individuals were members and not "the group". We have quite a few here, many I support but not as "group members".

        • 6 votes
        #13.5 - Tue Dec 4, 2007 5:21 PM EST
        Reply
        Scott (Scoop) Butki

        Great article and good questions, Killfile. I just clipped this to Newsviners Picks.

        • 1 vote
        Reply#14 - Tue Dec 4, 2007 2:19 PM EST
        Pamela Drew

        Also, if you're a Viner in NYC and aren't doing anything this evening, feel free to drop me an email.

        I'd love to meet but it depends heavily on what part of town are you hanging out in and what time you'll be free? If there was some planning we probably could have made a mini-vinemeet. New York has enough of everything I'm sure we could have scrounged together a band of Viners. Any NYC based folks floating around tonight?

        Weigh in now or forever hold your shot glasses. :~)

        • 1 vote
        Reply#15 - Tue Dec 4, 2007 2:44 PM EST
        Eric Atienza

        If I don't have to go far uptown (or far into midtown) I'd be up for coming out for a little bit. I work in Union Square, though depending on where it'd be fairly easy to come into the city.

        I do have a bit to do tonight so I wouldn't be able to stay for very long though.

          #15.1 - Tue Dec 4, 2007 2:50 PM EST
          Pamela Drew

          I work in Union Square, though depending on where it'd be fairly easy to come into the city.

          Hey, in my book the city ends at 25th, you're right in the heart of it all? Vinemeet at the Coffee Shoppe?

          • 1 vote
          #15.2 - Tue Dec 4, 2007 2:53 PM EST
          Eric Atienza

          Hey, in my book the city ends at 25th

          I like your style.

          Vinemeet at the Coffee Shoppe?

          Killfile, what time are you free?

          • 1 vote
          #15.3 - Tue Dec 4, 2007 3:00 PM EST
          winsomecowboy

          You balkanising NY'rs crack me up. This village good/that village bad. Ageless stuff.

          • 2 votes
          #15.4 - Tue Dec 4, 2007 3:32 PM EST
          Pamela Drew

          People never change and we're not all that different where ever you find us, nothing but subtle variations. :~)

          • 1 vote
          #15.5 - Tue Dec 4, 2007 3:38 PM EST
          Killfile

          I'm at the Belvedere: 319 West 48th Street, New York City, NY 10036

          I have no idea where anything is though I did manage to find Rockafeller Center and Times Square. That's about the limit of my geographical knowledge right now.

          I've got plans for dinner, but if anyone would like to try to meet up later this evening I'm open to ideas.

          • 1 vote
          #15.6 - Tue Dec 4, 2007 4:46 PM EST
          Pamela Drew

          Thanks, dinner or drinks would have been dandy but after you eat is too late for me to hike up there on this frigid cold night. It is the heart of the territory I try not to go into. Next time touch base, if you'd checked with me you could be in a trendy boutique hotel in a chic spot with great food in the neighborhood for what the room rates are there. Live and learn or maybe you like that kind of energy there, its hard to know.

          You are in the heart of midtown, center of all tourist activity, and a few blocks north of Times Square, a dozen below the south end of Central Park. It's fun to see if you've not been around it before. Maybe next time you can give NYers a heads up and we can find a place to meet, even if it is near there. Stay warm.

          • 2 votes
          #15.7 - Tue Dec 4, 2007 6:14 PM EST
          Eric Atienza

          Yeah... I'm home already and working on Newsvine stuff so I'll have to beg off as well. I used to work in that area and share Pamela's hatred for it, especially at Christmastime.

          • 2 votes
          #15.8 - Tue Dec 4, 2007 6:40 PM EST
          Partisan Hack

          Next time for sure...

            #15.9 - Tue Dec 4, 2007 11:21 PM EST
            Killfile

            I didn't want to post anything for sure until I was for-sure that I'd be able to go. I'm in a jury selection pool right now and my day-job is still spinning up.

              #15.10 - Wed Dec 5, 2007 12:17 AM EST
              jblossom

              If you want, we could meet at the Stage Deli on 7th Ave @ 53rd around 2PM. If anyone's interested, let me know.

                #15.11 - Wed Dec 5, 2007 1:06 AM EST
                Killfile

                Sorry, but if I'm going to get to my flight in time I'll have to head out before that.

                • 1 vote
                #15.12 - Wed Dec 5, 2007 8:39 AM EST
                jblossom

                I was at the Stage for about a half hour, no takers, but an NYC-based vine meetup sounds to be in order.

                • 1 vote
                #15.13 - Wed Dec 5, 2007 10:53 PM EST
                Reply
                Behind My Screen

                I hope that users can increase the quality of content. that is the entire premis behind the new group I created called How-To

                • 2 votes
                Reply#16 - Tue Dec 4, 2007 2:54 PM EST
                Smiling Jack

                Software is incapable of making the subtle distinctions necessary to differentiate between a brilliant political cartoon on the state of the Iraqi insurgency and - for example - a collection of kitten photographs with intentionally misspelled but humorous captions.

                I resemble that remark. I'll have you know howeer that any misspellings were not intentional and merely reflect a lack of intelligence on my part. (Hmm, maybe I shouldn't have finished that thought.)

                PETA, the Norfolk VA based animal rights organization, maintains an account on Newsvine for the publication of press releases, opinion articles, and the like. While the published content is classic AstroTurf, the organization is up-front about who they are and what they are doing and, more importantly, they interact with the community openly and enthusiastically, answering questions, debating issues, and contributing to the overall atmosphere of camaraderie and knowledge.

                It was always my understanding that what made PR astroturf was that it was trying to imitate a grass-roots movement. Something made by "normal folks" rather then PR guys for some corporation. If that is true that would mean that PETA isn't astroturf at all. (Maybe I'm wrong though.)

                I remember having an argument with cash about it on one of their threads. Like so many other terms, astroturfing is an epithet that first referred to a real problem, but is now misapplied to mean information from a group I don't like. That definition was evident in the comments of several of their articles. I hope that people here are able to grow up soon, and apply the same standard as to what is and is not astroturf, whether they like the topic or user profile, or not.

                Like you though, I'm glad PETA is here. One of the things I like about what they are doing is that on each one of their PR releases, they list the names of whoever wrote that specific article. I think that should be required on any account which is really a group of different writers.

                • 2 votes
                Reply#17 - Tue Dec 4, 2007 3:45 PM EST
                Smiling Jack

                I remember having an argument with cash about it on one of their threads. Like so many other terms, astroturfing is an epithet that first referred to a real problem, but is now misapplied to mean information from a group I don't like. That definition was evident in the comments of several of their articles. I hope that people here are able to grow up soon, and apply the same standard as to what is and is not astroturf, whether they like the topic or user profile, or not.

                (Not implying that your not grown up, I agree with you.)

                • 1 vote
                #17.1 - Tue Dec 4, 2007 5:23 PM EST
                Reply
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