New Oklahoma Law: Women Seeking Abortions Must Have Ultrasounds Against Their Will

It's a remorseless manipulation of a woman already making the hardest decision of her life.

Now that's a convenient yet incorrect assumption to make.

While it quite possibly is the hardest decision for some women, it is probably also the easiest for others.

Either way though, I agree it is manipulation.

Roan:

it is probably also the easiest for others.

How in the $%^ would you know?

I have to agree that:

Now that's a convenient yet incorrect assumption to make.

Common sense, nearing.

Just as neither you nor Killfile can know what every women thinks, neither can I. However, a little bit of common sense will tell you that not every woman will consider choosing to have an abortion, the hardest decision of her life, and for some it may be the easiest.

sure, I can agree with that, Roan.

yes, we MUST get away from these absolutes!

I agree nearing.

No more absurd than your claim Killfile.

I've known some women that it wasn't even a real decision. When they fell pregnant, they had an abortion.

yes, and as writer's we should shy away from using words like 'always', 'never', or 'absolutely'. They destroy our credibility.

And you know that they never privately agonized over the decision, Roan? It sounds like pure speculation and exaggeration on your part.

God, I'm such an ass

You are absolutely NOT an ass, KF.

But wait a minute, yes, you are, you haven't yet answered my friend invite! You are most definitely an ass.
:>)

And you know that they never privately agonized over the decision, Roan? It sounds like pure speculation and exaggeration on your part.

And you know that they have privately agonized over the decision, Gretchen? It sounds like pure convienient assumption on your part.

Roan, you're the one claiming that those women took it lightly--unless you know them inside and out, how can you make the claim you did in #2.8?

Unless you're looking to score cheap political points, I guess.

It doesn't really matter what sort of decision making process goes into it, it doesn't matter if the fetus has fingernails, it doesn't matter what anyone believes about the procedure itself. Women have been ending their pregnancies since humanity began. It is a human practice. The only thing we need concern ourselves with will it be legal, safe, and available, or illegal and dangerous, will we send people to prison for abortion, will we send them to the electric chair.

I've known some women that it wasn't even a real decision. When they fell pregnant, they had an abortion.

Yeah, and I was a counselor for Planned Parenthood and a women's crisis center. And I saw very very few of the women you describe, but more than my fair share of traumatized rape and incest victims, who shouldn't have to go through an unnecessary medical procedure to have the abortion.

The law also mandates that while a person can avert their eyes, the doctor must describe the fetus, including approximate size, discernible features, presence of heartbeat, etc.

The law also mandates that while a person can avert their eyes, the doctor must describe the fetus, including approximate size, discernible features, presence of heartbeat, etc.

ipod

Wow, I sat with a friend as she had one. IT was the most agonizing decisions she's ever made. Hell, she had an external on and they forced her to take an ultrasound picture with her (Yay Michigan!)

It took every bit of restraint not to cold-cock a woman that was screaming murderer outside for the clinic.

My friend had valid reasons for her abortion and she should not have to explain them to ANYBODY.

Do we ake the people who are HAVING babies explain why and how they will care for the child? Do we force pregnant couples to go through a baby bootcamp showin them the absolute worst that will happen if they HAVE the child?

I don't think Roan is saying that every woman takes on a decision like that lightly. He's just saying that women respond in different ways, for some it is easy, some difficult, etc (Right?). And I don't disagree with him on that.

Thank you Stacy, that is exactly what I am saying.

I thought I had made it clearer in comment #2.4, but apparently not.

While most woman would consider abortion a difficult choice, one would have to be naive to think that all women would. Essentially that is all I am saying, it is not the most hardest decision for every woman, and for some it may be one of the easiest.

Personal views, circumstance, and societal standards would all would play a role.

Yeah, and I was a counselor for Planned Parenthood and a women's crisis center. And I saw very very few of the women you describe, but more than my fair share of traumatized rape and incest victims, who shouldn't have to go through an unnecessary medical procedure to have the abortion.

Thank you, that is the point I am trying to make.

I agree, no one should have to go through any unnecessary medical procedure, but that fact has nothing to do with whether or not an abortion is an easy or difficult decision for them. It is ultimately their decision, and the state has no business trying to manipulate them in any way.

Roan, you're the one claiming that those women took it lightly--unless you know them inside and out, how can you make the claim you did in #2.8?

Unless you're looking to score cheap political points, I guess.

I think you are being purposely obtuse Gretchen.

I do not need to know someone inside and out to understand and believe what they are telling me, especially when their behavior coincides with what they are saying.

Cheap political points? What cheap political points? Not everyone sees every discussion as political Gretchen.

I don't understand the debate here regarding the difficulty involved in the womans' decision.

The problem is...., Oklahoma is invading the privacy of pregnant woman, invading the privacy of the Doctor/Paticent relationship, forcing Doctors to perform procedures they may not agree with and clearly trying to manipulate the freedom of choice laws that currently exist!

especially when their behavior coincides with what they are saying.

People's behavior and outward emotions often contradict their true feelings--say, the popular kid who has little self-esteem, or a parent putting on a brave face in front of their children.

Not everyone sees every discussion as political Gretchen.

Abortion is political, no matter the context. Thank the religious right for that.

Abortion is political, no matter the context.

For you perhaps, but thankfully you do not get to decide that for me or anyone else.

The goal is to get the woman to see that the fetus looks like a baby, and then to not abort it. "Your fetus has fingernails, you know?" and all that.

Shades of Alexander Payne's movie "Citizen Ruth," starring Laura Dern as a drug addicted pregnant mother.

You're right, KF. This is our Puritanical culture reasserting itself. The war on drugs, the abortion debate, racial integration vs. separatism, prayer in the public schools, feminism. There are some who simply refuse to move forward and accept the hard-fought changes that've been won in America.

The American Medical Association is one of the most powerful lobbies in our nation, and for this new bill to have been passed in Oklahoma tells me that there is at least tacit support for it from the medical community.

Sadly, the puritaical lifestyle has been misappropriated. The REAL puritans had pre-marital sex and practiced abortion.

The puritanical values that are pushed by neo-cons only existed in fairy tales.

Oklahoma legislators need to get down to business fixing what is truly wrong with their state, and quit pandering to the vocal religious minority.

I live here, bro. There will be more support for this pile of lard than outcry. Numerically, not just volume-wise. It's impossible to underestimate the sheer quantity of right-wing religious zealot theocrats that live in this skillet. Hell, we elected one to the US Senate, and our other Senator is the famous I-refuse-to-believe-in-climate-change-because-well-because Senator Inhoffe.

Kidnap me?

I couldn't agree with you more. I find it odd how these people want you to have more rights before you are born than after. It makes no sense to me at all.

So to those who prefer choice over your body, don't give it away keep the government away from health care decisions.

Government or private sector, it's still going to be a group of health actuaries who price these things and attach the strings. All the consumer choice in the world will not change that.

Maybe Oklahoma should have paid for the ultrasound and abortion then called the whole mess free womans health care, then their praises would have resonated across the media.

Most of us aren't smart enough to come up with that kind of spin. So, does anybody else live in a completely embarassing state?

Some of the "crisis pregnancy centers" have been caught swapping out the actual videos of the fetus for and older and more defined fetus. These people have no second thoughts about lying and manipulating women if they feel their "cause" justifies it.

Do you have a source on that? Not that I'd be surprised, but I'd like to read more.

I'll try. It was a few years ago that I read about it, but it's got to be somewhere on the internets still.

Yeah, Oklahoma's government made my dog watch an ultrasound of his butt worms before the vet could take them out. He went ahead with the procedure, and still looks longingly at spaghetti to this day. But that might be because he likes meatballs. But I like to pretend it's a sorrowful memory. He's a very sensitive wiener dog.

The doctor, according to this new law, must also describe the fetus. Size, features, heartbeat, etc.

And the point isn't what you can and can't see on the screen - because the law does allow the woman to look away. The point is you're needlessly sticking a transvaginal inducer inside a woman (especially since the law makes no allowances for victims of incest and rape - like they need rape by object after what they've been through).

hard to believe--the anti-abortion protesters have never even bothered to think about what the consequences would be if abortion were made illegal--i think they're just against it cause their religious advisors told them to be against it and it's evident from that video that it's a 'faith' or 'belief' issue....for damn sure it's not an issue for the courts--it's up to an individual woman and nobody else

Great video Cory

transvaginal ultrasound will give the best view of the fetus in the early months-hands down.

(I am a former ultrasound tech)

Vaginal ultrasounds can be extremely painful depending on the size of the woman's vaginal cavity. It is on a wand that is inserted. I had one and it was beyond painful.

If you don't want it - it could be considered equivalent to rape. Nothing like having things inserted in you that you don't want to be there.

Women having a voice? Don't be silly. God made Eve to be Adam's servant!

That was far from serious. By the way.

One must wonder, if the women choose to wear sunglasses or a blindfold as a protest of this idiotic and sexist law, would the state then mandate tying them hand and foot and, in a bizarre parallel of 'A Clockwork Orange', pin their eyes open and force them to look at it?

Where does the state's intrusion into the private medical care of these women end? This is outrageous and I wouldn't be surprised if it's unconstitutional as well.

The procedure is free, so there's no insurance issue at all here.

And the thing is, your argument doesn't exactly explain how seeing an ultrasound image - especially as the womandoes not have to view it leads to a more informed decision.

Previous Oklahoma law already required the doctors to inform abortion patients of where they could receive an ultrasound if they wanted one.

Yet again, someone manages to miss the point: it's not about viewing the ultrasound. It's about having a large transvaginal wand shoved up your vagina, against your will, with no option to opt out of the procedure if you wish to have an abortion - and especially no allowances for those that were raped or victims of incest.

Ugh....You just reminded me of the vaginal ultrasound I had to have. Let me tell you its painful, humiliating and abhorrent! And I CHOSE to have one!!! Can you imagine some poor rape victim?

Well if the women is not required to view then there isnt much to point it. And if its a vaginal ultrasound, combined with the idea that they are not required to view it and sign off on it, then there isnt really much point and it becomes too intrusive.

If they do an non-invasive scan to show the mother and the mother would be required to sign off on viewing it then that would make more sense. But otherwise this is just bad law.

The procedure is free, so there's no insurance issue at all here.

Since when do Doctors and Ultra-sound technicians work for free?!

Maybe the patient doesn't have to pay for the procedure, but someone does!

(like maybe ........ the taxpayers?)

Thanks for the the reply.

However, I think your analogies are a little off base and not even close to being a comparison, especially your colon wash to tooth pulling. And last time I checked, ultrasounds did not involve inserting anything into someone.

The problems with the adoption system is a separate issue, though related and obvious closely tied to the consequence of having less abortions when the choice is to carry the child and put it up for adoption. However, it is still a separate issue that needs to be tackled on its own regardless of the outcome of this case.

As for what are proven methods, well until you attempt something and show results, its not a proven method. So there must be methods attempted first before you can conclude whether or not they will have an impact. Therefore its a little premature to state categorically this will not work because you do not know. This is something I would file under one of the items you said are necessary: education. You are educating the person as to what is growing inside them and providing a visual that they normally would not see.

As for rape and incest, those are part of the reason why I feel you cannot make abortion illegal. There are situations, such as these, where I feel the majority can agree when it should be an option. There will also be other situations, such as when it is medically necessary. If it were to be illegal then you could not teach the procedures and doctors would be ill prepared to deal with circumstances when they arise.

As for government mandates, no one complains about all the hoops drunk drivers have to go through after they are busted. All the alcohol counseling and addiction counseling they have to go through even though many, if not most, dont have a problem. They just showed poor judgement and got caught and now the state is reaping the financial rewards off it. Or, in FL, if you want a divorce, they are either looking at, or already passed, that you have to go to counseling before they will allow it. Now that seems like a good idea but Im sure the couples will have to pay for it. It burdens people in similar way, going through an emotional and trying time. But again, I think we can all agree that less divorces would be a good thing.

so you don't think a woman knows what being pregnant. that's what it boils down to. Honestly, I think that if abortion is made illegal, women need to push to make male masturbation illegal. After all, that kills sperm, which denies someone life.

Every sperm is sacred, every sperm is great. If a sperm gets wasted, God gets quite irate.

-MP

LOL, exactly. I mean hey, if you are going to use the bible as your source of morality, you have no right to masturbate!

Monty Python rocks!

As for rape and incest, those are part of the reason why I feel you cannot make abortion illegal. There are situations, such as these, where I feel the majority can agree when it should be an option.

That has always been the most puzzling position to me. It's either a living thing or it's not. Why would the circumstances of conception matter to anyone who thinks life begins at conception?

As for government mandates, no one complains about all the hoops drunk drivers have to go through after they are busted. All the alcohol counseling and addiction counseling they have to go through even though many, if not most, dont have a problem.

Making babies into a form of punishment seems cruel to mother and child.

@bigger

You didnt even form complete sentences so I dont know what you are saying. But you obviously have no idea what I think from your bible statement. I think the bible is fairy tale and have an even lesser opinion of organized religion.

@Steve

As for masturbation being illegal, does that mean you are going to arrest god or every man anyway because whether he masturbates or not, those sperm are going to die anyway every couple of days, so that argument is dumb even at face value.

@badkungfu

Thats because im not a 'life begins at conception' mindless drone who harps on that one point.

Making babies into a form of punishment seems cruel to mother and child.

Viewing it as a punishment is only in people's point of view. Its not a punishment, its a natural consequence of action.

@Steve
As for masturbation being illegal, does that mean you are going to arrest god or every man anyway because whether he masturbates or not, those sperm are going to die anyway every couple of days, so that argument is dumb even at face value.

Oh dear. You didn't take my Monty Python quote seriously, did you?

Nudge, nudge, wink, wink. Know what I mean?

Viewing it as a punishment is only in people's point of view. Its not a punishment, its a natural consequence of action.

Pregnancy through rape can be considered a "natural consequence" as well.

If you argue that there should be exceptions for rape, you are arguing that pregnancy is a punishment for the woman's actions. There is no logical reason why a baby would not be so unless it was conceived through consensual sex unless we are very pregnancy and childbirth as a punishment for the behavior of the woman.

Yeah. Sure. Make the father take it. Will the fetus be transplanted to the father's body for gestation?

I can't think of any. There are issues in ER rooms about consent, but as far as I know, if you are conscious and of sound mind they can't force anything on you.

When I worked for Caterpillar's Command Center, we had a man having palpitations one night - I mean, we were trained dispatchers, but not trained response, so naturally, called an ambulance. The man refused to be taken away. He died at home only a few hours later of a heart attack, which the EMTs repeatedly warned him of. If you can't force someone to the hospital knowing very well that they may die within hours....well, you know where that thought is going.

The ultrasounds are free, we believe.

In 2006, a law was passed in Oklahoma requiring doctors and abortion nurses to inform the patient where they could get a free ultrasound prior to the abortion.

While the actual text of the law does not specify it is free, I'd assume it was because of the 2006 law.

Well thats good to know. I would hate to think that rape victims would be forced to pay for their second rape.

They are free at "crisis pregnancy centers". This law basically mandates sending a women to an adoption agency or faith-based center so they can be talked out of an abortion.

You pretty much know you're pregnant when you take a standard pregnancy test, ultrasound machine are common at clinics, but the vaginal machine is a fairly new piece of equipment, not all clinics would necessarily have one. The cost of new equipment is another way to get at the clinics, similarly as when a state requires the hallays to fit a gurney through a clinic door, even though no one ever gets sent to a clinic in a gurney.

In 2005, there were 6 abortion providers in Oklahoma. This represents no change from 2000, when there were 6 abortion providers.

• In 2005, 87% of U.S. counties had no abortion provider. 1/3 of American women lived in these counties, which meant they would have to travel outside their county to obtain an abortion. Of women obtaining abortions in 2005, nonhospital providers estimate that 25% traveled at least 50 miles, and 8% traveled more than 100 miles.

• In 2005, 96% of Oklahoma counties had no abortion provider. 57% of Oklahoma women lived in these counties. In the South census region, where Oklahoma is located, 21% of women having abortions traveled at least 50 miles, and 10% traveled more than 100 miles.

• In Oklahoma, 2 metropolitan areas lack an abortion provider: Fort Smith, AR-OK; Lawton

Restrictions on Abortion
In Oklahoma, the following restrictions on abortion were in effect as of January 2008:

The parent of a minor must consent and be notified before an abortion is provided.
A woman must receive state-directed counseling that includes information designed to discourage her from having an abortion and then wait 24 hours before the procedure is provided.
Public funding is available for abortion only in cases of life endangerment, rape or incest.

I wrote an article about this yesterday - and in it, I posted a picture of the "After Sexual Assault" pamphlet, with the suggestion of handing it out to those forced through the ultrasound. I completely agree with you on this point.

It's not a far line to say Oklahoma is raping these women. You are, to say it bluntly, forcing an object into a woman's vagina without her permission. That is rape.

MAJORITY OPINION: The Court finds this state law unConstitutional, and requires all Oklahoma lawmakers to receive Getting Hit On The Head lessons, which they must pay for. (sighs dreamily)

DISSENTING OPINION: What they said, but we actually prefer electroshock.

Mr. Cleese, is that you?

Not likely, they would probably throw it back to the state court, or in the event of a McCain Presidency, another "strict constructionist" will be sent to the bench.