Is McCain Being Swiftboated? USNA Classmate and Fellow POW Phillip Butler Speaks Out Against McCain

I doubt that he will be given leniency. There seems to be too much resume padding

Republicans are masters of the out-of-context quote, and you don't even have to be very good at it to know how to leave out all the praise of McCain's service, and clip the negative remarks in such a way as to distort them. They managed to make Clark's answer to a direct question (about whether or not McCain's service qualified him for the Presidency, to which he gave an honest answer) look like Swift boating. These people are incapable of shame.

These people are incapable of shame.

Welcome to the Republic of What I Say Is Right

Which is verifiable and which isn't?

Name some points. That would be helpful to the reader, don't you think?

Kill:

Who cares? Is he being swfitboated, they are trying.

But what college kid worth his salt didn't try to break every rule.

I kinda like the fact he has a wild side, eh?

But what college kid worth his salt didn't try to break every rule.

Well, a fair amount of us, actually. We're not laws unto ourselves - and that's the real concern with McCain. He appears to be an open invitation to have another weak president at the helm who in his essence really doesn't believe in the rule of law.

I don't buy, "...another weak president..." The current president is self important with a bloated ego. McCain would be addled and petulant.

Partisan:

So, you were a goody two shoes?

Well, not all of us were.

And this is why the hypocrisy of it all is shown by dems.

Billy gets a bj, and it's just about sex.

McCain, in college, goes out for a drink, and now he's a "law unto himself."

As T-Rex said in another thread (though to another political group), you guys have no shame, none whatsoever. And no consistency either.

Pitiful, really. Do you want everyone to live a "perfect" little monastic life, like you seem to have, so that 50 years later someone won't say, "hey, look, he drank when he was underage," or some such other pitiful bull@!$%#.

So, Obama was involved in muslim activities when younger, does that make him now a muslim?

Hmmmmm, come on Partisan.

Does that mean that Obama will, in fact, institute Sharia in this Country.

And let's not even talk about his mentor and good friend, Rev. Wright.

Really, hypocrisy, thy name is liberal!

I have to agree with the people saying that the title is unfair. The swift-boat campaign was just that: a well-financed advertising campaign designed to make it more difficult to know just what John Kerry's service was all about. This is an opinion piece written by one guy on a military website, and he is clearly expressing his opinion because many people had asked him for it.

To call this "swift-boating" makes McCain out to be a sympathetic figure, as if something unfair is happening to him. I think that's a massive mis-characterization of the events of the past week or so.

I thought one of the most interesting (and disturbing) things about the article were the comments. None of them disputed any of the statements in the article, but nearly all were derisive towards its author and supportive of McCain.

There is much work to be done on exposing this guy for what he is, and even when the facts are known it may not be enough for many people -- their negative feelings about Obama are that strong.

Thanks for posting the article, killfile, but I'd like to see you change the title. People who don't take the time to read the article will be misled.

wmolaw,

The point of the article is not McCain going out for a drink. It's about his spending his entire senior year at one of our service academies on restriction because of his behavior. He still obviously didn't do any schoolwork.

It was one of several points that this author is using from first-hand knowledge to express his opinion about McCain.

Your comments about Democratic hypocrisy are very entertaining, though. It would be fun to list the GOP pols who've been caught with their pants down lately while they're telling us all how to live our lives, but there isn't enough bandwidth on the website, and you wouldn't care anyway.

Loosecannon:

Actually, there is a website which lists the pols that have been accused of such improprieties and of crimes.

I doubt you would be surprised that dems lead pubs, though not by much!

Wmo: Just a minute there. Obama was involved in Muslim activities when he was "younger?" How much younger? 40 years younger? And what constituted "Muslim" activities, living in Indonesia? It's a matter of record that he did NOT go to a religious school there. Has he ever been a practicing adherent of Islam? No.

But then again, the Constitution forbids religious tests for election to office, so why should it even be relevant whether he did or not? It's not exactly the same as being a wild kid in college, just like the current President, although McCain at least doesn't claim to have found Jesus and turned into a saint in the interim.

That's how a rumor digresses.
First, he IS a Muslim.
Then, he USED TO BE a Muslim.
Thereafter, he WAS INVOLVED in Muslim ACTIVITIES.
and now, he WAS INVOLVED in Muslim ACTIVITIES when he was YOUNGER.

Eventually it will be "He thinks about being a Muslim".

OMG Obama said 'hi' to a Muslim!

He probably flashed a gang sign, too. :)

and then spent four hours yelling kill whitey

Good old Mowdy Doody stuck her foot in it again the day before yesterday, and the New York Times even printed a correction! She picked up on a passing comment in an account of a campaign event she hadn't seen herself (what else is new?!?) and wrote that Obama refused to do a "fist bump" with a boy at the rope line because he was so afraid that someone in the press (gee, someone with electric orange henna, perhaps?) would call it a "terrorist" fist bump. Turns out the incident never happened. The kid asked Obama to sign his hand, and Obama declined, saying that the kid had better ask his mother's permission first. So like the lazy-head idiot that she is, Mowdy took a piece of misinformation and spun a whole elaborate "insight into the candidate's character" from it, and quel surprise, came to the conclusion that Obama is a sissy, just as she's been saying for a year. What a vapid, idiotic little gossip that woman is.

Maureen seems to be a nice, friendly woman but I don't see why she is given the country's most prominent op-ed real estate to espouse her complete inanity.

Ah, T-Rex:

I see.

Tell me, did your father affect your life, your beliefs? Did he instill in you certain personality traits?

Or is BO's step dad just a nothing in his life?

I find it interesting how so many try to merely forget what BO may have in his past, or excuse it.

If the shoe were on the other foot, so to speak, you and the others would clearly not take this position as it is totally nonsensical.

But, hey. Go for it. Hopefully, some folks will know enough to look at ALL the facts, will do their homework, not just those which their blinkered thought processes will allow.

The Soetoro–Dunham household in Indonesia was not religious.
Source 1 Source 2

As it happens, I don't practice the same religion as my father, and he, unlike Obama's father or stepfather, WAS religious. Let's take Obama's word for what his beliefs are, rather than trying to tell him that we know better than he does what he believes -- that he's somehow been secretly programmed like a "Manchurian candidate" with Islamic beliefs, or that he's inherited them in his DNA. That latter notion is straight out of Hitler's playbook, identifying people as "Jews" by their heritage rather than their professed religion.

McCain is more likely a "Manchurian candidate" then Obama.

One of those famous temper tantrums during a debate should do it. If he manages to restrain his outbursts, and smile on cue instead, we'll see that winning death's-head rictus that he displayed in his June 3 debacle of a speech. Now, will this be enough to overcome the prejudices and racism of a lot of the voters? We'll see.

T-REx:

Oh, I suspect there will be lots about BO coming out.

And we will hear the whines about "swiftboating" then, and how it's really unlike what they are doing to McCain, etc., etc.

Fun times.

If the backgrounds of both candidates come out truthfully, then let the chips fall where they may, but if it's lies and smears on either candidate its going to backfire.

The debates should be interesting.

Maybe McCain will crack and debate himself like Dr. Strangelove. Obama off to the side bemused.

I myself know many of us in college did drugs. That was many years ago, I doubt seriously if we could find someone that hasn't done drugs at one point in time. And I know many highschool kids that have had words...so what's your point?

Killfile 5.1

What's your point?

She's got no point. She tries to bring in Obama whenever and wherever she can. Apparently, others on Newsvine have gotten smarter to her tactics too.

I don't know why we are concerned about who drank or did drugs when they were in college. I did alot of things 30year ago that I don't do today. It didn't seem to make any difference when it was George Bush doing blow or being charged with a DUI. Hopefully, both men have learned from their past experiences and moved on. I know I did.

Kj:

Exactly. This is just pitiful, and those like Partisan who take an event that McCain did in college and now say it shows that he is X way, and we must be careful!

Really pitiful.

Apply this to BO, and I assure you a thousand acolytes will come out with excuses, statements of irrelevant, etc.

To all of you who did drugs in college and know people who did: How many of you and your friends are running for the presidency?

I certainly hope that our next president doesn't have a substance abuse history. George W.'s was enough.

Susan:

Sorry, Bill Clinton did. And this is the problem with the way our elections work now, dirty crap from 30 years ago which don't mean a damn thing today.

How many did drugs/got drunk/committed crimes that it just never came to light?

Kill:

Got that right. Frankly, if he was there would be no chance for Obama to win.

Obama is able to recall his youthful indiscretions and write about them. George can't remember what he did and prefers not to read or write. McCain can remember some things but over time the stories have been embellished upon.

I'd like to point out that McCain himself has acknowledged having an explosive temper. When he was a child, he has written that he would suddenly become so furious that he would black out. And he never really grew out of it. More here.

Are we seriously going to talk about how candidates behaved when they were little children??

What about my reference to Obama's shouting match on the floor of the Illinois Senate? And his description of himself in his 20's in Manhattan as "a spy behind enemy lines"?

These are NOT youthful indiscretions. Nor were his dealings with Tony Rezko and Northern Trust. And the list will continue.

A shouting match on the floor of a statehouse, how unusual. Now, a SHOVING match on the floor of Congress is a bit more serious. And as for calling himself a "spy behind enemy lines," you obviously have no concept of "metaphor," do you?

If you click on the link, you'll see that McCain's temper has continued long into adulthood. I include his childhood fits because those are quiet remarkable. But he himself admitted that this part of personality is still present now.

I agree. He only spoke of what he knew of or experienced in regard to McCain. He was charitable and said he was answering a question he's often been asked. He appears to have no axe to grind, politically, although he and, maybe others, may wonder why their presence is never mentioned as being helpful to McCain during the campaign season.

PC-

his decision not to compromise his ideals

You're kidding right? What ideals?

How about compromising his ideals about torture? The was tortured, he's spent his entire career spouting that he opposed to torture in all forms. He starts his bid for the presidency, what does he do? He backs Bush's torture regime.

If that's not compromising one's ideals I don't know what is.

This is only one of many examples.

You make many more assumptions than the article (while making a critic regarding assumptions) about who asked the guy. You say "No doubt, fellow democrats...". Who asked the republican senator from Virginia who claimed McCain choking a fellow during a diplomatic negotiation? I wont assume a democrat either.

You sound bitter about many bloggers willing to grace the pages who have opposing opinions even while you grace the pages yourself.

Now I have fallen on both sides of the discourse through the past year but I welcome every blogger as long as facts are stated and opinions highlighted. Its all about making ourselves a better four years than the past eight.

We are in the dog days of summer. Maybe the nominees will freshen as we approach the fall. Right now they both seem to have turned a little.

McCain is not the image of America the world wants to see.

McCain is not the image of America the world wants to see.

Should I send "the world" my expenses?

Who cares "about the world"? They have to put their act together also.

Actually we have many ex-pats, military, diplomatic and executives living abroad. When the U.S. is what she once was, it makes dealing with the rest of the world easier. A great many places have got their act together. It's great to visit them when your young.

A great many places have got their act together. It's great to visit them when your young.

I lived 26 yrs overseas. Therefore, saw many countries improved and others to go down.

I only spent half that time. I salute. I do think it's important for the U.S. to aim toward a higher mark than we are right now.

That sounds like opinion to me. How about the location of these records?

And whatever they may be, at least he actually voted and has a long record.

1. Women Give McCain a Zero
2. John McCain on War & Peace , McCain/Bush/Iraq war
3. John McCain on Social Security
4. McCain's ties to big banks.

McCain's Voting Record

Hahaha, and the arcane fact-opedia strikes blissfully yet again! :)

Seriously, thanks arcanebliss, for the hours you spend researching and coming up with these facts to counter the BS here on Newsvine.

9.1:

That sounds like opinion to me. How about the location of these records?

Too lazy it look it up? Anyway, you got your answer in 9.2.

And whatever they may be, at least he actually voted and has a long record.

Ah, the irony. That sounds like opinion to me. We can now all see whether he actually voted instead of listening to your opinion.

Seriously, thanks arcanebliss, for the hours you spend researching and coming up with these facts to counter the BS here on Newsvine.

Indeed that take hours to research for McCain. However, posting about Obama just takes me a minute while I am stuffing leaves in my craft this afternoon.

Funny. They were referring to how much information I provide, not how long it takes.

I'm guessing by comment 9.6 that whatever determined0a1 said in comment 9.5 was irrelevant, off-the-mark, or just plain nonsense. That was the original reason why I put her on my ignore list and not have to waste precious time reading a dozen inane "Oops Ooops" posts by her every day. I'm guessing she hasn't changed.

Thank-you arcanebliss for filling in the blanks [for the un-initiated], I hope she [susan c] actually ventures out to cyberland and stretches her political comfort zone! A mind is such a terrible thing to waste...

As some of you may notice, inspired by this and 'other' lucid exchanges; I have rolled-out my new identity in hopes of further inspiring more impressionable young lasses, going forward [ha, ha, ha]

I have to admit that your new user name is frightening.

As usual, much thanks for the good links. Those of us who aren't pros need all the help we can get.

More when I am through with the great info from Poject Vote Smart.

What can I say, I am an unbiasis [floating] independent voter trying get my breath [of issues] and not to be run over by those wacky swift boats...

I agree. Why do we need to come up with a name for people giving their opinion. This guy has a right to speak his mind just like the "swiftboat vets" did. If you are going to run for president, people who knew you in the past will come to the surface and speak about your past. (Remind me never to run for president).

I think people who know the truth about a persons true character or morals should by all means come forth and tell the truth about either Obama or McCain. I dont wanrt either man to win just for the sake of winning.

I guess I'll have to do my own research in arcanebliss fashion. Having said that, the person I found most compelling in the article was Stockdale. He was more intelligent,
more heroic, more modest and stable individual, than the presumed nominee of the Republican party.

Kerry was foolish [why are we mentioning Kerry? I thought this was about John McCain?]

Sorry, I can't understand English well.

I read swiftboating and remember the "other" John.

See, I thought Kerry was a heoric patriot for throwing his medals away just as I think McCain is heroic for keeping his. Heroism and Patriotism contrary to current jargon have more to do with acting on what you feel is right even if it goes against your own government. Kerry should have stood up for himself and been more honest about his actions. McCain should do the same... very matter of fact... this is what it is like to be in your twenties and imprisoned overseas. These are the things I did to survive.

If he feels like it was all part of being a soldier then he should say that to. No problem with sending the troops.

If he feels it was a horrific injustice then he should say that and do whatever to prevent sending troops.

I think the real similarity between McCain and Kerry is that they both are overly concerned about appeasing the party base. It is hard to be yourself when your double speaking. Maybe they all do it to a certain extent, but some are not so good at it. Dole, for instance, all but refused to put up a front and failed miserably. I kind of admired Dole although I didnt agree with his politics.

Parting shot: Want to find swiftboating of John McCain? Look at what the Bush gang did to him. Obama is playing nice.

Sorry, I can't understand English well.

...is more like it, this excuse iof yours is getting, old. I'm not buying it. Shut up, take a damn class or, Go Back to Cuba.

Damn, Dan... That's harsh! =[

Kill and Dan:

Pretty pitiful guys.

A large number of the posters on this site don't have English as a first language.

Should we just slam the @!$%# out of them? Hell, let's have an English test you have to pass to get on the site, eh?

The vaunted liberal acceptance, eh? That is, unless the person whose English is broken disagrees with you and then it's:

Shut up, take a damn class or, Go Back to Cuba.

Kind of sounds like all those who don't like America should get the hell out, eh?

Sounds like he just wanted to make sure that one of them was in a condition to get them both home safely.

Maybe at least sober enough to find the way back.

T-Rex and Kill:

Sounds very, very rational to me.

Well you hit that one out of the park. Intelligence is often slighted on this cite. Smart is not better it's just smart. Tautology?

Then......Caroline Kenney is going to give good advise to Obama?

Well, are you talking about Gore and Kerry?

renard - I couldn't disagree more - graduated at the top or as close to the top as possible in his class, means not the smartest / best but the most mediocre, the most compliant to a standard measure. In the military, the word would be "martinet"; think Frank Burns on MASH. Top of the class people are rarely found in MENSA, they don't have the capacity for it.

People who barely made it out or were near the bottom often are members of MENSA (as well as a large number of drop-outs) as they were so far ahead of the "class", finished their "lessons" faster, got bored; and left or found more creative things to do, think RADAR on MASH, or HAWKEYE..

While I would have to research the person; I really would not want the person from the "top of the class" who excelled at being incredibly average; when I see a doctor I want to survive the results.

Clark graduated Valedictorian, top 5% of his class.
That does not mean mediocre.
That does not mean average.

Also, I'm going to need factual [lol] sources pointing out that most or even more than half of the members of MENSA finished at the bottom of their class.

lol

You use Clark as an example, which proves my point; he is incredibly average in ability, he was put into his position not because he was exceptionally skilled but because he was incredibly average. There is an old saying, I don't know if the root was latin or greek, which goes "everything tends towards the middle (sometimes quoted as all institutions tend towards the center, sometimes as everything tends towards the average, etc. English just doesn't match the originals in intent or function; middle = center = average = mediocre = median; etc.)

As far as MENSA, were you a member, you could research this, but it's set in no one place. I do remember that there are more college dropouts (in one survey back in the 70's) than graduates (if you exclude college by mail / "experience" / diploma mills / etc. as "graduates" - there are a good number of college by mail / test only graduates)

eriq samson

You use Clark as an example, which proves my point; he is incredibly average in ability

Probably doesn't cut it, you don't know much about Wesley Clark if you claim he has "average ability". Support your claims with factual sources, otherwise they're just unsupported opinions.

Are you a member of MENSA?

Any body who uses a episode of Mash as the basis for comparing the military qualifications of soldiers in real life has to be a fucxxxx goofy Republican and when I said I didn't want the bottom of the barrel I was speaking specifically about John McCain

Any body who uses a episode of Mash as the basis for comparing the military qualifications of soldiers in real life has to be a fucxxxx goofy Republican and when I said I didn't want the bottom of the barrel I was speaking specifically about John McCain

LOL. This post alone has made signing up for this site totally worth it.

Eric: Well, that raises the obvious question of what criteria Mensa uses to vet its members, and how valid they are. I've known at least one Mensa member who was an unbelievable ditz. It's possible that she was intelligent in some areas, but when it came to practical matters, or even the most basic survival instincts, she was hopeless (e.g., accepting dates with guys she hardly knew, then finding out that they were sleazy). She certainly was no academic star, and although her hobby was music, she had no discernible talent for that either. (I heard her sing once. Ouch!) Her main reason for joining Mensa was to find an intelligent man so that she could get married and have intelligent babies. She did eventually get her all-important Mrs. degree. I don't know how the rest of the project worked out.

Qualification for Mensa is based exclusively on IQ. Score in the 98th percentile on any of a number of accepted qualifying IQ tests, and you're in.

So if she's truly a member, then she scored pretty darn high on an IQ test. But IQ alone is not a good measure for "smarts", as it only measures the ability a person has to learn new things ... it doesn't measure how much they have learned, nor their commitment to doing so.

Renard:

If you review the qualifications necessary for a pilot, they ain't the bottom of the barrel.

Now, B.O.'s military career is something which we should all praise.

And Bill Clinton, FDR, Hoover, and on and on.

Wasn't there a guy named Grant that was a big war hero? I wonder what kind of President he made?

I love the military, so I feel bad for posting this next thought:

George W. Bush, George H.W. Bush, and Jimmy Carter all served in the military, and well....ok, I don't even have to post a conclusion.

No, we should question Lincoln's patriotism because he destroyed states rights.

I have a relatively high I.Q., ≈135, and people generally consider me smart. I don't think that I'm as smart as people give me credit for though and I don't think that an I.Q. test is an "end all" measure of intelligence, they can be biased and misleading. I think that I'm smart enough to understand how little I know.

However, I think that there should be a minimum intelligence standard for our highest office. I think an I.Q. limit of about 80 would have precluded both dubya and McCain.

Tom Cruise is a whacked out Scientologist who jumps on sofas in the middle of interviews. In Top Gun, he played his standard role of a pompous jerk, hothead who learns the hard way to become a team player. He is a big cheeseball.

Dan:

Hmmmm, let me see. Your guy is now all for the individual right to own guns, though before he was against it.

And now he wants child rapists killed, but not murderers.

And on and on.

I get a kick out of the fact that to be nominated by his party, he has to be a total lefty. To be elected, however, he has to be a centrist.

Seems that a dem candidate must be schizo, which fits the bill in this instance.

During a February 15, 2008 press conference, Obama stated, "I think there is an individual right to bear arms, but it's subject to commonsense regulation."
Source

In his own words, "While the evidence tells me that the death penalty does little to deter crime, I believe there are some crimes - mass murder, the rape and murder of a child — so heinous that the community is justified in expressing the full measure of its outrage by meting out the ultimate punishment. On the other hand, the way capital cases were tried in Illinois at the time was so rife with error, questionable police tactics, racial bias, and shoddy lawyering, that 13 death row inmates had been exonerated."
Source: The Audacity of Hope, by Barack Obama, p. 58 Oct 1, 2006

I'm a Liberal, as were many of the Framers, and Founders. I own a few Guns. I like Guns. I'm better then good shot. I also believe in capital punishment, and beyond the reason of an eye for an eye. Treason, is and subversion of the Country as well.

Society [has] a right to erase from the roll of its members any one who rendered his own existence inconsistent with theirs; to withdraw from him the protection of their laws, and to remove him from among them by exile, or even by death if necessary." - Thomas Jefferson to L. H. Girardin, 1815

There are no Big Black lines between the parties! Never were, and never will be. We are all Americans, except those who are not. There are more Non-Americans Here in Newsvine then American citizens.

McCain was rejected by the Republican Party in the 2000 South Carolina, if he was the best candidate then why did he lose to Bush. He lost because the Republican Party called him a fag and talked about his family specifically his drug addicted wife ,while they literally crucified him for cooperating with enemy's of the United States while he was a POW.

Because this guy changed his story and McCain did not and never has, this guy is not to be trusted or believed.

How do you know that this guy changed his story if you are asking where was he in 2000?

he good news is that we now have scientific evidence that the Stockholm Effect takes place somewhere between 5 and 8 years of capitivity.

Link to back that up please. Tell that to Patty Hearst. Or the people that were taken hostage in the 1970's Swedish bank that the Stockholm Syndrome was named after....5 to 8 years...LOL.

What a macaroon. Eat some bran muffins.

It is funny how some people embrace Foreign endorsements of our political candidates. If someone from the middle east endorses Obama it is a condemnation, but if a North Korean (axis of evil) endorses McCain it is a good thing? Or was it a bad thing?

It is a very dangerous thing happening with our parties using foreign opinions like this (and the media for using it to stir up controversy).

We profile them in airports, but we trust their opinions and allow them to shape our political elections.

steve tuscon
you left out the part where the same guard said McCain was a liar, that he was never tortured. but that he made up the story to get votes. When you use a example use the whole thing or you run the risk of looking stupider than you all ready do for supporting that turd.

He broke his arm, and hurt his leg in the crash,---- the picture of him in a bed, he is being treated in a Hospital by a doctor.
So, lets not release his medical records for months after being asked for them, and when we do, don't hand out copies to the public and only let the media look them over for half an hour, so no one can see for themselves there is no physical evidence of him EVER having been tortured.

What in the world does the Stockholm syndrome have to do with anything? McCain admitted long ago that he did things under torture that he is not proud of. But he certainly didn't join the Vietcong.

What have you done for your country lately? Other than those things required by law. For that matter, what has Obama done for this country? And I mean all of us?

McCain admitted long ago....What have you done for your country lately?

What have you done? And who the @!$%# are you anyway to question anyone's right to inquiry? This is a strawman. I never brought up this Stockholm crap. I settled it. I tell you what, e-mail me your resume and credentials that show you have this right, and then I'll consider telling you what i have done lately. And what did McCain Admit to? Or was it a just a Claim? Oh was it just to make it sound like he was forced? I think he embellished the hell out of it.... I think he's a lying POS. I think he told them everything that he knew, and begged, please don't hurt me and said his daddy was a general, I'll tell you everything! They are told to lie, to make things up. McCaine willingly gave them actual intelligence and was not even slapped! I think his medical records would prove this if he allowed anyone to examine them longer the 15 minutes and actual released them to the public with out edits.... what is he hiding if not the truth?

Wow, I bet you are glad to get that off your chest, but I wasn't even addressing you. And I don't challenge your "right to inquire". I am just curious about what some of you are talking about. Do I have a right to inquire?

I have every right to ask what someone running for the presidency has done for the country. I also have a right to ask you or anyone else who is criticizing others for their service.

For that matter, I have a right to ASK anyone.

One important thing Obama has done for his country is to warn against going into Iraq. Unfortunately, at the time, no one listened.

I have every right to ask what someone running for the presidency has done for the country.

And So do I and I don't need to answer to you or anyone else to do it. Thank you very much now take you sanctimonious elitist attitude somewhere else.

Obama may have "warned" others about going to war, but when he actually was in a position to vote against it, he didn't. Now, he is going to have to see what the generals say before he can commit to withdrawal.

I ask again, what has Obama ever done for this country?

In between flights...Do your own research. It's public record.

News Stories
Housing Aid Bill Passes Senate Test
June 24, 2008

WASHINGTON -- A bill aimed at helping hundreds of thousands of homeowners in danger of foreclosure cleared an important test vote in the Senate on Tuesday, raising the prospects for final passage of an aid bill by mid-summer.

On the Issues
Ethics

Throughout his political career, Barack Obama has been a leader in fighting for open and honest government. During his first year as an Illinois State Senator, he helped lead the fight to pass Illinois' first major ethics reform bill in 25 years. As a U.S. Senator, he has spearheaded the effort to clean up Washington in the wake of the Jack Abramoff scandal.

More issues:

CrimeDefense
EducationEnergy
EnvironmentHealth Care
Homeland SecurityImmigration
IraqSeniors

T-REX:

Oh, bull. Lots of people were saying don't go into Iraq. Hell, I even lost a bet to Jack because I said don't go into Iraq, and that GW wouldn't be stupid enough to do it.

I had to buy his book!

Still amazes me we did that, at least in the way we did. If we had reliable sources re: WMD's, take them out and leave the people to Saddam. Not as if this Country gives a damn about people anyway.

See Rwanda, NK, Sudan, Saudia Arabia, and on and on and on.

Ah well, live and learn.

Wmolaw: Yes, and kudos to you for having the good sense not to get caught up in the mindless war-fever in '03. But the fact remains that you and I had no political careers to endanger by speaking our minds on the Internet. Any politician who spoke out publicly against the war back then was running a huge risk. Al Gore did, and he was absolutely blasted -- not by conservatives, but by hawkish liberals, who ranted on about how it proved beyond doubt that he had been absolutely unfit for the Presidency, should never even think of running again, had disgraced himself, blah blah blah honk blat honk blat. Hillary Clinton, faced with the danger of being called "soft on terrorism" and accused of not supporting the President in a crisis, buckled. Obama didn't.

Shades, I'm afraid you will get your wish. I hate to give some of these ludicrous stories currency by repeating them, even to debunk them, but this one is so obviously ridiculous that I hope it won't get too far: a guy on a New York Times site today (responding to Frank Rich's latest exercise in silliness) claimed that McCain was responsible for the accident in the Italian Alps when a U.S. fighter jet that was flying too low cut the cable of a ski-gondola.

Now, that incident happened in 1998, as anyone over the age of 21 should easily remember. Was McCain flying jets in 1998? Sheeeesh!!!! What the people behind this obviously hope is that people will remember the incident but not the specifics, and that they can be befuddled into thinking that it happened many years earlier. It's the same tactic involved in promoting the story that Obama took his oath of office on a Koran. He didn't, but Keith Ellison did, and the e-mail recipients who believe the story vaguely remember the news about Keith Ellison's inauguration, while forgetting which member of Congress was involved.

trex, I haven't heard this one yet. Seems like a non-story to me, and obviously I am not a McCain supporter. Honestly, I don't think this sort of thing will have much effect on people's views of McCain. Folks who will be looking to discredit the candidates, both candidates, will be looking for juicier, dirtier stuff than this. Undoubtedly they will find what they are looking for, whatever it takes. I read recently that stories will begin to break in the not so distant future about McCain's infidelity to Cindy. How credible? I really don't know. We'll see if it happens. And if it does happen, and if any of it turns out to be credible, to what extent, if any, would that affect the views of the social conservative / religious right wing of the GOP? I don't know, but it would be interesting to see. And I'm sure the muckrakers are busy unearthing Obama stuff as well, which I suspect they will find. It's already dirty and dishonorable - the whole muckraking thing. But that's how politics has been played throughout most of history - even US history. Except that now, with the technology we have, the Internet and all, it just feels so much dirtier. Pity that much more weight isn't given to things like, oh, issues, plans, solutions, rather than to attacks on character and integrity.