Photo leaked from a US military computer network of a detainee held by the United States with face wired, lips sewn, red eyes and torso sacked.

Indeed.

The question then, is: How long before this is happening to "ordinary citizens," based solely on the president's say so? (That is, of course, assuming this type of thing isn't already happening to citizens.)

Toture those nasty terrorist!!!They arent protected by our constitution so who cares they are enemies of freedom.

They arent protected by our constitution so who cares they are enemies of freedom.

The same could be said of our occupying forces in other countries.

I tend to believe we (and all countries) should abide by international law and statutes when it comes to torture.

We arent protected by our constitution anymore.. If James is being serious then someone in his physical proximity needs to do us a favor and push him out of a window or something..

Who are these people..

Actually, terrorists are protected by our constitution. At least, they're protected from things like this.

From the Declaration of Independence

"We hold these truths to be self-evident, that all men are created equal, that they are endowed by their Creator with certain unalienable Rights. . ."

Actually, terrorists are protected by our constitution. At least, they're protected from things like this.

From the Declaration of Independence

"We hold these truths to be self-evident, that all men are created equal, that they are endowed by their Creator with certain unalienable Rights. . ."

Anyone who doesn'tunderstand the difference between the Constitution and the Declaration of Independence should be denied suffrage.

Look up the Geneva Conventions and the Law of Armed Conflict (LOAC). We're better than that. Even if some do not hold to what they have sworn to do or not do, it doesn't mean everyone is that way.

Besides, this could be a person found already tortured by their own people. It doesn't mean the US did it just because it was supposedly leaked from a military computer. There isn't anything to prove it. Not enough info.

I can't believe I said constitution instead of Declaration of Independence..

My apologies, I meant to say that rather than Constitution.

And I do agree with Feathers though, there really isn't enough information to incriminate the government.

I am, and Courts is en-route to Eastern Europe as we speak.

Book research or buying more books?

If you feel like getting into a good Obama's media coverage debate swing by my column sometime.

I work in Photoshop all day long, too. And while it is hard for me to tell what is going on with the wire, the sewn lips, if faked, were done by a pro.

We all remember some of the embarrassing photos of detainees that got released and got soldiers in trouble.

If you think those photos were simply 'embarrassing' then I pity you. @!$%#ing disgraceful to this country and every human being is what those photos are.

I know too many soldiers for me to even come close to thinking there's a torture policy or tacit acceptance.

Um, the president of the country has admitted they torture people; big surprise your jarhead acquaintances aren't spilling the beans.

Matthew, It's not like there is open season for this type of behavior. These types of acts are carried out by only the select few who received their orders from the top. I know plenty of Marines who would tell you the same thing.

When given a 'special' job to do from say, top DOD officials, you might be all too eager to perform without hesitation because you may be led to believe this is your break into the inner circle and a chance to move ahead.

And we've seen (from incidents like Pat Tillman's murder) that the top extends their protection down to the guilty pawns.

I have no idea if this is a documentation or not. What I do know is that my mind and being reject this image as an abominable. The idea that my government might have even considered torture brings me great sorrow and anger.

If you look at the high-res image, I think there's a gap between the top of the wire on the right and what looks like its alleged insertion point. If that's the case, the faker failed pretty hard.

Kill:

Any further information on this, or just what this article says?

Thanks.

Yet the response seems to be pretty uniformly "he's been tortured" and that we (the United States) probably did it.

No it isnt. Are you reading the same comments?
You write this is the "uniform" response, are you reading different responses than I am?
The ovwhelming response I read here ranges from warnings of skepticism to out right denial.
Not only is it not uniform, but until you wrote it here there was NO comment stating "he's been tortured" - NOT a single one.

I do agree that it is amazing and represents a fundamental shift that most people believe that whether or not this is an authentic photo the government is capable of and has inflicted what most observes believe to be torture.

I agree that it is very telling that trust in our government and belief in the United States as a champion of human rights has been decimated both in the United States and around the world.

I believe that is a rational and reasonable response to what has happened, I dont belive that every photo that comes down the pike should be or will be assumed to be authentic. I dont know if the US tortured this guy or even if the probably did - I do know they have engaged in what I believe to be torture and what McCain says he knows is torture and have sent others to be tortured in other countries.

The country I lived in tens years ago or so condemned ALL torture. It would not accept such spin and obfuscation Not too long ago when the President said the US does not authorize torture, I and most people believed the President - not this President. This President has taken away the US mantle of authority at home and abroad. Its really sad.

The reason we are talking about torture is the title of the article:

"Photo leaked from a US military computer network of a detainee held by the United States with face wired, lips sewn, red eyes and torso sacked."

The statement is pretty clear about where it wants to lead us, couple that with the picture and, voila, we're talking about torture.

I wouldn't call it a leap, or even a hop, skip and a jump, I would call it a "logical" conclusion, based on the title, that the photo is being held out to be a portrayal of torture perpetrated by the US Military.

The statement is pretty clear about where it wants to lead us, couple that with the picture and, voila, we're talking about torture.

I wouldn't call it a leap, or even a hop, skip and a jump, I would call it a "logical" conclusion, based on the title, that the photo is being held out to be a portrayal of torture perpetrated by the US Military

.

You are confusing the difference between the interpretation of what the article appears to be intended to lead people and whether in fact they have in fact reached that conclusion.

My point is that vast majority of comments in the thread DO NOT say that have concluded that the picture is authentic and the result of torture by the United States. If you see the comments other wise please quote them.

Its a "leap" to assume that just because someone comments that they have therefore concluded the photo is both authentic and a product of torture of the US when they dont actually say that. Your speculation about the intent of the original writer may be correct the ananlysis of the responses of newsvine to the extent you claim they have bought into that interpretation lacks factual support.

I'm not claiming that people have bought into anything.

Killfile said: "Everyone is skeptical Catch22, but the fact that we're even talking about torture here suggests that this leap has been made - even if it is tempered with healthy skepticism."

It's obvious that most people here are not taking it seriously, my entire comment was about the intent of the original writer not an analyses of skeptics vs the non skeptics or any other comments on the NewsVine. The original writers intent was my whole point.

You mis-read my statement.

You mis-read my statement.

Perhaps, but if so its because you were responding to comments about the conclusions of the commenters and not the author of the article and structured your comment as if you disagreed with the prior commenters.

I wouldn't call it a leap, or even a hop, skip and a jump,

Since no one called it a leap to characaterize the intent of the author why write it as if you were disagreeing with the prior comments. Perhaps its because you misread the prior comments?

In any case I guess we agree, the intent of the original author can be reasonably speculated as seeking to support the connection, and it would be a leap to conclude that newvine readers have come to that conclusion.

Huh?

I'm not "responding to the conclusions of the commenter's". Do you speakee English? I'm not sure why you are trying to pick my statement apart but I read through all your other comments and sort of see a pattern emerging, you simply like to argue. Nothing wrong with that per se but you also seem to have an irritating need to sound smart and be right about everything and you come off as a bit angry, disproportionally so. Sorry if you are not right in this case.

I made a simple statement. Quit trying to twist my words to accommodate your interpretation so you can be right. Just get over yourself already.

you also seem to have an irritating need to sound smart and be right about everything and you come off as a bit angry, disproportionally so. Sorry if you are not right in this case.

You sound angry, Im not. I dont know why you come to such insulting conclusions, other than to invent psychological views and project them, whats the point in your comment?

Just get over yourself already.

Given your total lack of basis for such conclusions, pehaps you should take your own advice, or at least stop projecting onto comments what is just not there.

Not angry, just annoyed.

You are not a very good listener and that does bring out the Juvenile in me I guess.

You said: "That's my opinion, take it or leave it, but I do request respect as is required under the Newsvine code and request you stop in your insulting projection of pyschologal characterizations of my comments"

Were you the hall monitor in school or something? Oops sorry, there I go again. I wouldn't want you to tell on me or anything.

I'm just frustrated with you because I don't feel like you are hearing what I'm saying, you seem to be gleaning only what you want out of my comments and not what I actually mean. I think in the beginning I had some opinions about the actual topic that I was trying to share, but somewhere down the line this discussion just became more about defending myself against you due to your taking the things I say out of context etc.

It's really difficult to communicate with you my friend, well at least it is for me.

Unsolvable I'm afraid.

God Bless

Are you kidding with that comment? You believe in man being soley responsible for global warming too? If I fake a picture of a seal eating a polar bear is that a possibility too? Maybe congress should draft a law against solar flares.

If I fake a picture of a seal eating a polar bear is that a possibility too?

If you fake a picture of a bear eating a seal, that would be a real possiblity. Yes you can come up with implausible scenarios, the difference being that the presented scenario is not implausible.

Can you not see the difference?

You believe in man being soley responsible for global warming too?

Do you always respond with ridiculous straw men when you dont like what you read?

Catch:

I know of no examples of torture perpetrated by American soldiers/employee which rise to this level of physical assault.

Do you? Credible, verified?

Sure, stripping naked, water boarding, building naked pyramids. We have seen these and know of these, and they are verified.

But this?

If you have some, let's see them.

Otherwise your point is invalid.

Kill:

My question still remains. Any verified, credible examples of torture/mutilation performed by Americans such as this?

I will await your response.

That is the issue.

May I also note, Kill, that these memos were "obtained" by the ACLU through FOIA?

We live in a pretty great Country, don't we?

During a press conference Thursday, U.S. Attorney General John Ashcroft said that during the course of a two-day interrogation, "Passaro beat Wali repeatedly using his hands and feet and a large flashlight." Wali died June 21, 2003.

A case still technically under review by the Justice Department, the officials said, involves a high-profile episode in which a C.I.A. officer has been linked to mistreatment of prisoners, in a case involving an Iraqi who died under C.I.A. interrogation in a shower room at Abu Ghraib. But in another case, involving the hypothermia death of an Afghan at a C.I.A.-run detention center called the Salt Pit in Afghanistan in November 2002, the Justice Department has signaled that it does not intend to bring charges.
A third episode studied within the C.I.A. involves a former Iraqi general who died of asphyxiation after being stuffed head-first into a sleeping bag at the base at an American base in Al Asad, in western Iraq, on Nov. 26, 2003, after several days of interrogation. The questioning involved beatings by a group that included at least one C.I.A. contract worker. One official said that case was never referred to the Justice Department for prosecution.

Mr. Passaro is awaiting trial in North Carolina in connection with his role in a fourth case, involving the death of a prisoner in Afghanistan in June 2003.

Beatings to death in the shower, suffocation, death by hypothermia with no criminal prosecution.

A US military interrogator convicted of killing an Iraqi general by stuffing his head into a sleeping bag was sentenced to a reprimand and fine but escaped jail time....The officer was accused of torturing Mowhoush, covering his head with a sleeping bag, binding him with electric cord and sitting on his chest until he died.
The general died of suffocation at a detention center in Al Anbar province, near the Syrian border in November 2003.
The US military believed Mowhoush was a former close advisor of Saddam Hussein and a leader of the rising Iraqi insurgency at the time.
During a five-day trial last week, prosecutors displayed gruesome pictures of Mowhoush's body, arguing that Welshofer knowingly ignored US military interrogation protocol that did not sanction the sleeping bag technique.
They claimed that Welshofer ignored warnings and rebukes over his methods, which they called "torture", and did not fully inform his superiors of his techniques.
However, Welshofer's lawyers cited evidence in emails and other communications that interrogators had been urged to "take the gloves off" in their handling of prisoners, authorizing his techniques.
Mowhoush was transferred into Welshofer's hands already badly beaten and with broken ribs, allegedly after brutal treatment by CIA officials and contractors, referred to in the trial as "civilian interrogators," they claimed.

The man was tortured to death. The punishment 60 days loss of privileges and $6,000. http://www.commondreams.org/headlines06/0124-03.htm

The detainees said they were savagely beaten and repeatedly humiliated sexually by American soldiers working on the night shift at Tier 1A in Abu Ghraib during the holy month of Ramadan, according to copies of the statements obtained by The Washington Post.

Not sure whether this has been verified or not, then again the Bush adminstration controls the evidence. There are many many allegations of physical beatings and abuse.

For the record I doubt the authenticity of this particular photograph but as far as physical assult in custody, it has clearly happened.
The evidence is quite clear that people have been tortured and beaten to death in the custody of the United States with most cases resulting in light punishment if any at all.

May I also note, Kill, that these memos were "obtained" by the ACLU through FOIA?

We live in a pretty great Country, don't we?

Absolutely we do. Part of what makes us a great nation is our committment to the rule of law and not of individual men. The Bush administrations decision to claim the unilateral ability to ignore and reinterpret the law at their own discretion undermines that directly.

A great Country that should hold its leaders accountable when they authorize torture. It will be a huge set back for this nation if those who hold themselves above the law are not held accountable.

Well with this statement I couldn't agree more.

Catch and Kill:

It hasn't been led by great men for some time. Although most folks pay much more attention to the president/executive branch, me I pay more attention to what Congress is or is not doing.

Congress is where the real power is, for that is where the money strings are. And it is in that arena where, frankly, our "public servants" have really let us down.

Congress is where the real power is, for that is where the money strings are. And it is in that arena where, frankly, our "public servants" have really let us down.

Congress has let us down. Especially 2002 through 2006. As for real power, there is plenty of "real power" in the executive branch a hell of a lot of it and current administration has been the primary driver in using government to let people down.

This example of toture is a perfect example. How do you imagine this could have been reasonable prevented by Congress? They should do more to hold the executive branch accountable but have prevented the President from ignoring the law and reconstruing it before he did via manipulation of the purse string. That would be a neat trick indeed. The purse string is a powerful tool, in matters like these its a very blunt instrument.

wmolaw

You had written:

know of no examples of torture perpetrated by American soldiers/employee which rise to this level of physical assault...
My question still remains. Any verified, credible examples of torture/mutilation performed by Americans such as this?

I will await your response.

That is the issue.

The evidence is pretty clear that the level of physical assault perpetuated by American soldiers/employees has been documented to include several cases of beaing beaten and suffocated to death and untold numbers of instances where people were severely beaten short of dying.

Dont you agree?

Catch:

I am not aware of such examples of activity against a prisoner.

If you have links, shoot em to me.

Obviously, the goodness of this seed isn't the seed itself, but rather the discussion that follows, the conclusion of which is "this looks like Shenanigans, but I wouldn't deny the American government is capable of ordering such acts."

Risk the death of even more troops? The troops who VOLUNTARILY enlisted? Into a war that is not to protect their own country, but is butting into another countries business? The troops who expect to be called heroes for this?
Eh, then so be it.

J.Silver,

Are you able to tell from the photo that the man depicted actually "cut off heads, kill Jews, stone homo-sexuals and abuse woman."

How do you purport to know that actually? Do you conclude that everyone held by the US government and declared to be unlawful combatants are likwise automatically guilty of such acts. Do you have a rational basis or magical powers or a combination?

If a man does none of those things, is he then entitled to be treated humanely or is the mere suspicion enough to make such a person no longer human?