An American Pravda

Outraged? Certainly.

This is no shock. Fox News and other outlets have been in lock-step with the Bush/Cheney administration from Day One.

Fox is merely the most visible. Watch Pat Robertson's CBN 'News'... and you'll see the same thing.

Listen to the drabble from right-wing talk radio... if your stomach can take it... it's all there.

Read the right-wing columns... more of the same.

They're all friends of the government... doing their best to stay on the same page.

Notice how they all used the same talking points when Scott McClellan's book came out? Cheney & Rove were dashing out memos left and right (well... maybe not left, LOL).

And just so we're clear about it every f'ing administration since the invention of the printing press has done precisely the same thing. Before the advent of the cable wankfests, Jack Kennedy used Joe Kraft (later to become a speechwriter for him) and Joe Alsop to float his trial balloons. There's nothing remotely new about any of this as anyone with a whit of knowledge of history would know except for the really bizarre obsessions some people seem to have with FNC.

"Skeptics of the MSNBC pundit might wonder why it took Mr. Olbermann - a vocal opponent of the Bush Administration - four days to make mention of such documents following McClellan's July 25th revelation and why he has remained quiet about them since 2004."

Although Olberman has started to grate on me I can see he is nearly my age and if he is like me had to search through mounds of documents before finding the document in question. Killfile, I feel uncomfortable doing this, but I believe that "opinioned" would be better expressed as "opined." I always enjoy your articles so I hope you don't mind.

nothing new to see here.. two wrongs make a right.. clinton did it too.. fox isnt baised
blah blah blah.. oh look ,my hair is dry.. cool thanks bill.

Ya beat me to it Joules...
Yeah, it's happened before, so lets just accept that and move on, right Bill?
Corrupt politicians have gotten away with bribes before, so lets cut poor ol' Ted Stevens some slack here... right?

If it's illegal, it needs to stop, never mind the precedents of past administrations. As Joules points out, two wrongs don't make a right.

And lets add to this list all the retired generals who were given their talking points and marching orders from Rummy's Pentagon leading up to the invasion. JFK may have floated "balloons", but this administration has raised deceiving it's citizens to an art form.

Chris, how soon do you think 'till the Justice Dept. opens an investigation? Oh wait...

Killfile,...When I read over what I write my mind fills in or corrects errors. It's a strange response.

The media isn't making a big deal about this because they benefit from it. The Democratic party isn't making a big deal about it because they've done it in the past and have every intention of doing it in the future.

Tom,

Just because NBC and MSNBC are truly in the center and Fox is an unabashed right wing whore does not mean that NBC and MSNBC take anything from the left other than quotes.

I eagerly look forward to your gripping expose' of how MSNBC and NBC take dictation daily from the Leftist cadre that now owns the Democratic Party.

Got proof? Or is this a pathetic attempt to deflect the actual issue of Fox? I never thought you'd be apologizing criminal acts, Tom. But I guess if it serves one's politics, it can be justified, correct?

Jim

JFK may have floated "balloons", but this administration has raised deceiving it's citizens to an art form.

Sounds like someone's never heard of the "Missile Gap" which Kennedy used, with connivance of the media, to launch a false attack on the Eisenhower administration in the only documented WMD lie of modern times:

. . .But the gap flap was not easily silenced—and for good reason. During the campaign Candidate Kennedy had played heavily on the possibility of a dangerous missile gap. "We are facing a gap on which we are gambling with our survival," he said on the Senate floor a year ago. Lyndon Johnson had clucked that "the missile gap cannot be eliminated by the stroke of a pen." Missouri's Senator Stuart Symington, the Democrats' chief defense specialist had charged: "A very substantial missile gap does exist and the Eisenhower Administration apparently is going to permit this gap to increase." Ike found the attacks so galling that in his final message to Congress last month he said: "The bomber gap of several years ago was always a fiction, and the missile gap shows every sign of being the same."

The contemporary Time piece cited which is not bylined on the web but was probably written by another Kennedy stenographer, the late Hugh Sidey, was later undone in its apologia for Kennedy when it was revealed that it is highly likely that both him and Lyndon Johnson knew this was false but perpetuated it anyway:

Director of Central Intelligence Allen Dulles summarized the briefings in a letter to President Eisenhower [PDF, 450KB] in early August 1960. The letter is contained in the Eisenhower Library and was declassified in 1976.

Dulles explained that he had briefed Kennedy on July 23 and Johnson on July 28 at their respective residences. Each briefing covered the same topics and lasted slightly over two hours.

"The two briefings covered the same general subject matter," Dulles wrote. "Namely, recent developments in Sino-Soviet policy; an analysis of Soviet strategic attack capabilities in missiles and long-range bombers and of Soviet nuclear testing prior to the moratorium and the background of the RB-47 [aircraft shootdown] incident. This was followed by developments in the Berlin situation, in Cuba and the Congo and in other strategically important areas including the Middle East, Iran, the Formosa Straits, and Communist China; also NATO problems and France and Algeria."

McClellan has already backtracked on his "talking points" allegations and the claim that these, even if true, could be used as the basis for a criminal prosecution is ludicrous.

Just because NBC and MSNBC are truly in the center...

Ok, you owe me a new keyboard.

I think most people realize Faux News has been a little, well...slanted. McClellan provides official confirmation.

'You want confirmation? Look out there! THERE'S your confirmation!'

(From the film 'Tora Tora Tora')

Bill,

Are you seriously saying that a politician saying something on the news is the same thing as giving the news pundants their talking points?

This is not simply about the lies, it is how the Bush administration turned Fox news into a mouth piece by giving their anchors and pundants "marching orders".

Bhodi,

Sorry, but NBC/MSNBC is the center. Your politics skews your view of the center far to the right.

or turn a blind eye to their hardcore and blatant partisan reportage.

Way to miss the point and avoid substance.

Typical liberal: You know you cannot defeat us on the merits so you:

1. slime and smear
2. censor, censor, censor. Liberals are for censorship and against freedom of speech because when the issues themselves are debated freely and openly, they lose.

No one wants higher taxes.
No one wants drug addicts being paid to sit around and pump out babies on welfare.
No one wants more illegal aliens taking our housing, benefits, scholarships.

That is why people are so irrational about Bush: Bush Derangement syndrome is all about people who cannot deal with reality and instead project emotional hatred upon Bush because it is their self-hatred about being weak and cowardly that his presence makes so clear. They still cannot accept that they were on the wrong side of history with Vietnam even with all the fact proving they were wrong, which is why they hang on to it so much.

They cannot admit that they were cowards and hid when it was there time to serve rather than being men like every other previous generation in America.

The know that they cannot argue logically with Bush's long-term strategic policy in the Middle East so instead of admitting they are wrong now and were in the 60's, they have to redouble their efforts to hide their true legacy as the most destructive, selfish, and cowardly generation in the history of America.

They hold on to the 60's because if everything in the 60's was wrong, then they are bad people and they cannot stand to think of what a selfish spoiled generatio they really are.

Let go of the 60's. It's time to grow up, children. This is our war, so get out of our way and let us win it. They hate America because they hate themselves for being so weak and cowardly so they have to convince themselves that America is terrible and not worth fighitng for because if it is....then they are in fact the cowards everyone said they were back then. They know this is true in their hearts. One generation has single-handedly destroyed America.

Shall I go on to social security, you governmemt trust rund robber barons?

Smoke some more dope, losers, but your time is over so spare us the 60's nostaligia and let more capable better generations rule and defend America now.

To prove my point, you never mention any specific "propoganda" do you? Just because the white house issues a press release doesn't mean it's "pro;anganda."

Propaganda is using demogoguery based on false charges to stir up irrational hatred against a strawman for your own purposes.

You cannot deal with the issues so you are going to smear fox news.

Go ahead: List the "propaganda" here and let everyone see and debate it. There is none.

If they did something illegal, then indict them for it. But they are not going to be indicted.

Do you want to talk about pravda type propaganda? How about cleaning up your own party first?

You were elected on promises to stop the war. They put up some fake objections until you forgot about it then they rubber stamped every bill Bush asked for. They could have stopped the war, but they lied to you because they know they could tap in to some other emotional issue and manipulate you that way to distract you.

Guess what? Now Obama is saying that he is not going to end the war. Suckers!!! What are you going to do when Obama increases the troops "because of unforseen situations with Iran" and Bush is out of office? The Dems lied to you about stopping the war and Obama is lying to you now because they know they can so easily distract and manipulate you because you cannot control your emotions.

One generation has single-handedly destroyed America.

Nope, that would be your side, which has had control of Congress and the White House many times longer than the Dems.

I'm glad to see you owning this war, though. But why should the Republicans, who lied and mislead us into a war of choice with no planning or idea of what winning is, be trusted with it? Or with anything else?

When all Republicans do is lie, there are no merits.

They CAN use a private news organization as a propaganda mouthpiece-----

The illegality that exists is that the statements being made are being presented as facts and not as opinion and are being presented as original unbiased "fair and balanced" journalism rather than as propaganda to forward the Administration's agenda.

And why am I not surprised by this article. bush and murdoch (I'm embarrassed he's an Australian), hand in hand. Fox and white house hand in hand. Perhaps they should get married. That might make their lies legal. Arseholes the pair of 'em.

Show me where it is legal to do such a thing.

LOL, my friendly, civil innocuous little "hello" comment got collapsed by the community? Are you kidding me? In more than 8,200 comments I've made here on Newsvine, that's probably only the second or third time that has ever happened. Oh, wait, I see a few nervous folks also collapsed my gentle critique of Scott McClellan as well! Wow, way to get trigger-happy, folks!

I've been mostly inactive the past few months, but as I return, it seems like people are becoming exceptionally thin-skinned around here these days. Are we now collapsing comments just because we disagree with the substance of them? C'mon folks! Please tell me it's the newbies doing this, and not any seasoned, hearty, tolerant Newsvine veterans who enjoy honest and robust dialogue.

There are legitimate reasons to be suspicious of Scott McClellan's veracity and credibility, just as there are also legitimate reasons to wonder whether or not MSNBC and NBC are completely in the tank for Barack Obama. Are we now going to censor those kinds of comments? Is there any place for moderates and conservatives remaining here on Newsvine, or are we just going to become DailyKos Jr. around here?

Well, let's see how long this comment lasts: I don't like Keith Olbermann. Yowsah!

I love how you state that there are legitimate reasons but them leave them out of your comment.

BMS, you've been around here long enough, and had enough arguments with me, to pretty much know where I stand, why I take the positions I do, on a whole range of issues. I've provided reams of links and arguments over the course of my 8,200 comments here on Newsvine and it has done very little, if anything, to ever convince or satisfy the hordes of Leftists and reflexive Bush-haters who dominate this site.

So, let's just save ourselves a whole lot of time here, shall we? I think McClellan is a discredited boob, and you think he's the oracle of truth.

Considering I have never bathed in the sunlight you provided regarding McClellan's veritas I would appreciate it if you would provide reasons to discount him other than character assasination.

LOL ... "bathed in the sunlight" ... that is pretty funny, and I laughed in spite of myself.

Why is the burden of proof on me to show McClellan's mendacity? Shouldn't you have some burden to provide evidence of his credibility? The Left always called him a liar, until he suddenly said something they liked, and now he's a great heroic defender of the truth?

I like what Bob Dole said:

In an extraordinary message obtained and authenticated by Politico, Dole uses his trademark biting wit to portray McClellan as a classic Washington opportunist.

"There are miserable creatures like you in every administration who don't have the guts to speak up or quit if there are disagreements with the boss or colleagues," Dole wrote in a message sent yesterday morning. "No, your type soaks up the benefits of power, revels in the limelight for years, then quits and, spurred on by greed, cashes in with a scathing critique."

Michael Marshall, Dole's spokesman and colleague at the Alston Bird law firm, confirms the message came from the former senator and presidential candidate. "Yes, it is authentic," Marshall wrote in an e-mail.

"In my nearly 36 years of public service I've known of a few like you," Dole writes, recounting his years representing Kansas in the House and Senate. "No doubt you will 'clean up' as the liberal anti-Bush press will promote your belated concerns with wild enthusiasm. When the money starts rolling in you should donate it to a worthy cause, something like, 'Biting The Hand That Fed Me.' Another thought is to weasel your way back into the White House if a Democrat is elected. That would provide a good set up for a second book deal in a few years"

Dole assures McClellan that he won't read the book — "because if all these awful things were happening, and perhaps some may have been, you should have spoken up publicly like a man, or quit your cushy, high-profile job."

"That would have taken integrity and courage but then you would have had credibility and your complaints could have been aired objectively," Dole concludes. "You're a hot ticket now, but don't you, deep down, feel like a total ingrate?"

Scott McClellan's Allegations Lack Credibility

As White House press secretary, McClellan was not privy to sensitive policy decisions and therefore has no specifics to back up his charges.

In "What Happened: Inside the Bush White House and Washington's Culture of Deception," McClellan claims that the White House sold the Iraq war to the American people with a sophisticated "political propaganda campaign" led by Bush. He says it was aimed at "manipulating sources of public opinion" and "downplaying the major reason for going to war."

McClellan says that he and his subordinates were not "employing out-and-out deception" to make their case for war in 2002. But he alleges that the administration repeatedly shaded the truth and that Bush "managed the crisis in a way that almost guaranteed that the use of force would become the only feasible option."

McClellan cites no details, and for good reason. McClellan was not invited to attend classified meetings where the decisions about going to war were discussed.

"The role of the press secretary does not have him in the most sensitive military and intelligence briefings that the president conducts with his national security advisor and secretary of defense," Fran Townsend, the former White House counterterrorism chief who was at many of those crucial meetings, tells me. "So the facts and policy discussions he sees are limited."

Instead of supplying specifics, McClellan makes sweeping allegations that contradict the underlying facts and therefore lack credibility.

McClellan's Incompetence and Forced Departure Leads to Bitter Betrayal of Bush

Bill O'Reilly Calls Out Liar Scott McClellan

In the meantime, McClellan's book bombed, he torched all of his bridges to all of his longtime friends, and soon his 30 pieces of silver and 15 minutes of fame will be all gone. Perhaps he can get a job shining Olbermann's shoes.

you made the allegation so the burden is on you. That is how it works.

Credibility is assumed and then attacked in discourse, not the other way around.

Yeah, sure BMS, that's how it works with the Left with every report from Fox News or George Bush or Wall Street Journal. You always assume they are telling the truth, unless somebody can prove each statement wrong. And, that's how Conservatives are treated here on Newsvine as well, correct? You always assume we are telling the truth from the get-go?

Of course not. You have a fundamental belief that whatever Fox says is a lie. I have a fundamental belief, based on events of the past year, that McClellan has little credibility. The links I provided - which I doubt you paid any attention to - give many reasons why McClellan should be doubted.

Tom,

I assume the administration is lying at this point in time because of the lies they have told in the past.

I don't think conservatives lie unless I have reason to believe they are.

According to Howard Kurtz on CNN today, McClellan has now backtracked on his allegations of Fox taking talking points from the White House. McClellan also apologized to Bill O'Reilly for saying so.

How's McClellan's credibility now?

I have old articles in my google search from Kurtz, that is all. I'll have to wait for the transcripts to be placed on te web before I can trust your interpretation.

The fact that McClellan appologised to O'Reily is a non issue, back tracking on teh entire thing would be an issue so I wait to see it in teh next few days.

I'd really like to know what the intended purpose is of the "community collapse" feature?

I assume it was originally intended to deal with offensive posts. Now it seems to be used mainly to censor and suppress valid opposing opinion, as we see demonstrated here with Tom Bombadil's posts above.

I notice it seems to be very prevalent in it's misuse on Killfile generated articles and seeds.

It's strange that those of the left claim to be so much for freedom of speech, and then immediately exercise suppression of free speech, when given the opportunity on Newsvine.

Thanks, jazzman. I was surprised those comments got collapsed, because they are not uncivil ... in fact, I was trying to be a bit light-hearted.

I've probably made some other comments among my 8,200 that probably deserved to be collapsed, but it's just exceptionally rare that I have that happen. I guess that's the way things are heading here on the Vine. Sad.

that is about the 5th or 6th time you mentioned your posts... are you attempting to insinuate something about yourself?

After reading his collapsed comments to refresh my mind, I think it was stupid that they were collapsed, but it seems some newsviners took your sarcasm about them a little harder than you intended.

Jazz... killfile has no control over who hits the report buttons on the comments in his articles. If Tom was out right deleted, then you would have a point to make about killfile's articles. Your comment is however, not on point and is probably just over the CoH line, or close enough that an argument could be made about it.

BMS, I think it's about the third time (not 5 or 6) I've mentioned it, and I was simply saying that I've been around awhile now, made a lot of posts, and getting collapsed is a novelty to me, and I'm wondering if there has been a shift here on the Vine in terms of people being overly sensitive.

Does that clarify things a bit?

Jazz... killfile has no control over who hits the report buttons on the comments in his articles. If Tom was out right deleted, then you would have a point to make about killfile's articles. Your comment is however, not on point and is probably just over the CoH line, or close enough that an argument could be made about it.

Behind My Screen,

If you think I committed a CoH violation then report me. Threatening to report me is just an attempt to censor me. Is stating the truth a CoH violation?

In fact, I would truly welcome an opinion on this issue from Calvin or Emily, and maybe consideration of a change to, or elimination of, the collapse feature, since I feel it's being misapplied.

If you review some of Killfile's articles and seeds (and I'm not saying it has only occurred on his alone), what I noted has occurred on several of them, and there has even been discussion of the issue on some of them.

Killfile has a dedicated following on NV, which I don't have a problem with. My problem is when his dedicated followers are able to collapse comments, to very obviously suppress valid opposing opinion, in their support of him.

that is about the 5th or 6th time you mentioned your posts... are you attempting to insinuate something about yourself?

Behind My Screen,

I think your comment I quoted above would be a CoH violation, or very close to the borderline.

Thanks, jazzman. I was surprised those comments got collapsed, because they are not uncivil ... in fact, I was trying to be a bit light-hearted.

Tom,

I believe the collapse feature should be eliminated. I don't see any real purpose for it, especially as it was used here in your case.

If you review some of Killfile's articles and seeds (and I'm not saying it has only occurred on his alone), what I noted has occurred on several of them, and there has even been discussion of the issue on some of them.

Have you stopped to consider that almost all of his articles and seeds are political in nature and that political discourse tends to generate very emotional responses among users?

You don't, as a rule, see one user call another a Nazi on a non-political thread.

jazzman,

If you think feedback about a comment is an attempt to censor, then you have some rethinking to do.

Censoring requires that you stop the release of unwanted information.

At any rate, my comment was no even close to a CoH violation since I was not personally attacking Tom, I simply asked a question regarding his repeated use of the number of comments he has made here.

So, BMS, was my answer satisfactory to you? And, by the way, jeepers creepers, I way underestimated my comments ... I have more than 9,000 ... and this article remains one of the very few where I've ever been collapsed.

I'll wear that as a badge of honor.

If I was unsatisfied with it I would have said so in a follow up.

Faux news is of course owned & manipulated by the dirty digger of media...

"Faux News."

Oooooooh, wowowowow, I've never heard that one before. Perhaps next, someone can call it Fix News.

Quick, call our colleague Keith Olbermann and tell him we've got a scoop!

Maybe it's because the democrats have their own propaganda agency(CNN, MSNBC, etc.)

I like to call it "MSDNC" hehehe.