Banishing The GOP's "Socialist" Boogyman

Live Poll

Does McCain's branding of Obama as a socialist influence your vote?

Yes, it's changed my mind
7%
No, my mind was already made up
43%
Makes no difference to me
48%
Doesn't matter; I can't/won't vote this year
2%

Total Votes: 42

The McCarthy Campaign Platform
Image Credit: DawnOne via Creative Commons and Flickr

"Socialism" has been the slur de jour of the GOP for going on 70 years now. It is a term that generations of Republicans have applied to every meaningful government initiative since the creations of the Federal Deposit Insurance Corporation (FDIC) under the Roosevelt administration and John McCain has spent the better part of the last month attempting to nail to to Barack Obama.

McCain introduced the "socialist" talking point into the race shortly after Senator Obama was video-taped explaining how his tax plan would impact the largely fictitious finances concocted by one Joe "The Plumber" Wurzelbacher. Since then Obama's progressive tax cut has been lambasted by Senator McCain and Governor Palin in high school gymnasiums and middle school auditoriums across the battleground states.

McCain and Palin, in collusion with a veritable horde of on-line, right-wing, chicken-littles, paint Obama's plan as the beginning of the end of American capitalism with a 2008 Democratic victory ushering in a Stalinist distopia of collectivization and Soviet-style production quotas. Apparently they were handing out hyperbole in St Paul this year.

Republican Socialism

Ask the Republicans to define "socialism" these days and the response will pretty invariably be "Senator Obama." With that in mind, consider the difference between Senator Obama's tax plan and Senator McCain's. According to David R. Henderson, a columnist for Forbes, Under [McCain's] plan, high-income people would pay a top federal income tax rate of 35%.... [Under Obama] their top rate would rise from 35% to 39.6%..

So, at least with respect to income tax, the GOP is defining "Socialism" as 4.6%. We might reasonably expect to find Maryland, with a maximum personal income tax rate of 4.75% opening re-education camps while business and industry flock to South Dakota with its 0% income taxes. Strangely, this seems not to be the case.

The extent of the GOP's intellectual bankruptcy becomes even more clear when its claims are viewed through the long lens of history. To suggest that Senator Obama's proposed tax structure falls towards the conservative end of American politics would be a gross understatement. Indeed the maximum marginal tax rate under the Obama plan, 39.6%, is a whopping 10.4 points lower than the marginal tax rate throughout Ronald Reagan's first term. Indeed, only the Wilson, Hoover and Bush Administrations have seen maximum income tax rates lower than those proposed by Senator Obama.

Eisenhower, Nixon, Ford, and Reagan: pinko-commies all it would seem. Clearly the definition of Socialism espoused by John McCain and the Republican party needs some work.

What Is Socialism?

Over the last two centuries or so a wide range of political and economic philosophies have laid claim to the mantle of socialism most espousing, to one degree or another, state or collective ownership of resources (and in particular the means of production) in persuance of a more egalitarian society. Socialism has its roots in France in the 1830s but is most commonly associated with the historical philosophies of Karl Marx where it is enumerated as one of the stages of history.

Today the word "socialism," particularly in American politics, refers to the European model wherein the state either provides or heavily subsidizes infrastructure while guaranteeing an array of social programs and services. The healthcare debate has aquatinted most Americans with the concept of socialized medicine, it's triumphs, and its follies, but socialism in the European sense of the word is a great deal closer to home than most Americans realize.

Indeed the debate over socialism in the United States is not a question of if Americans should socialize but rather what they should socialize. Roads, schools, universities, regulatory agencies, and the air-travel network to say nothing of Medicare, the FDIC, and of course Social Security are all examples of or funded by socialist programs and most were decried by the same political forces that now afix that label to Senator Obama.

The false dichotomy presented by the McCain campaign – that Obama is socialist and McCain is not – is preposterous for exactly those reasons. Neither Senator McCain nor the GOP as an institution seem to have any argument with Social Security as a program, nor have they any planks in their platform to end Medicare or do away with the Department of Education. Senator McCain even sits on the Senate Committee on Commerce, Science, and Transportation, the committee most directly responsible for the Senate's oversight of the (socialist) air travel network.

Socialism even pervades the capitalist utopia of Sarah Palin's Alaska. As the embattled governor now famously noted: (Emphasis added)

[In] Alaska we're set up, unlike other states in the union, where it's collectively Alaskans [who] own the resources. So we share in the wealth when the development of these resources occurs [by private corporations].

It is through the collective ownership of the means of Alaska's production that the people of Alaska are able to avoid paying income taxes and sales taxes. This policy places the entire burden of the state's administration on the backs of the private corporations that drill for oil on Alaskan lands, redistributing their wealth in a very real and tangible sense in the form of checks made out to every man woman and child who can claim citizenship in the state.

Marx would be so proud.

Banishing the Boogyman

Even John McCain recently admitted, in an interview with Larry King, that he does not really believe Senator Obama to be a socialist. The word is hyperbole and political fear mongering, a crass and brazen attempt to use the communist boogy-man from the 1950s and 1960s to slander a political opponent. John McCain is running out of time and running out of ideas and as the race for the 2008 Presidential Election draws to a close, the Sr. Senator from Arizona can chose how his campaign will be remembered.

If he closes with cries of "socialist" and "Barack the wealth spreader," Americans may ask of Senator McCain Have you no sense of decency sir, at long last? Have you left no sense of decency?

It is not a question McCain wants voters asking on November 4^th.

36 Votes
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5.2

0.7

{"commentId":3803068,"authorDomain":"killfile"}

This is the fifth in a series of articles leading up to the Presidential election on November 4.

As I was previously asked to tackle the GOP's use of the word "socialist" this article attempts to do just that in layman's terms without getting into the academic and historical uses of the phrase going back a few hundred years.

{"commentId":3803068,"threadId":"405158","contentId":"2059522","authorDomain":"killfile"}

5 votes

#1 - Fri Oct 31, 2008 11:46 AM EDT

{"commentId":3807798,"authorDomain":"energynet"}

energynet

Red baiting goes back further than 70 years. It goes back to the 19th century and the attacks on organized labor. One of the biggest strategic pushes against socialism came in 1907 with the formation of the National Civc Forum.

Another perspective that was missed in this presentation, not to mention the larger MSM. What do real bonafied socialists think of Obama's socialist credentials?

Imagine if he'd ever actually been a member of any of the numerous marxist groups that exist in the U.S.! He would not be in the running today! Liberals are terrified of real bonafied marxists. In the past, if the label stuck as during the McCarthist era, your life was over.You either moved to Europe or lived the rest of your life on somebody else's couch.

{"commentId":3807798,"threadId":"405158","contentId":"2059522","authorDomain":"energynet"}

2 votes

#1.1 - Fri Oct 31, 2008 3:43 PM EDT

{"commentId":3810103,"authorDomain":"tirionoyara"}

Getoutandstayout

Everything he has said during the campaing, including TWO WEEKS ago to Joe The Plumber, shows that he feels the same way today! Obama has marinated in Marxism his whole life, from his leftist mother, to his Communist mentor, Frank Marshall Davis, to his Marxist professors and his Marxist theology, PASTOR. Obama is a believer in the ideology of Karl Marx! You want to know what bonafide socialists/marxists believe, just ask all of Obama's friends and relatives. Just don't ask Obama, otherwise he will just tell you "Thats not the person I knew".

Even his wife's words carry that tone.

"Don't go into corporate America." (Speech at daycare in Zanesville, Ohio)

"And Barack Obama will require you to work. He is going to demand that you shed your cynicism, that you put down your division, that you come out of your isolation, that you move out of your comfort zones, that you push yourselves to be better, and that you engage. Barack will never allow you to go back to your lives as usual - uninvolved, uninformed..." (Speech in February, 2008)

"Barack knows that we are going to have to make sacrifices, that we are going to have to change our conversation, we're gonna have to change our traditions, our history, we're gonna have to move into a different place as a nation." (Campaign speech in Puerto Rico)

But I also believe as a country we have already started down the road to socialism. McCain is too socialist for me. And if McCain is too socialist for me, why on earth would I want Obama? Just listen to those idiots like Barney Frank "Changedism...we need to spend more money". Thats absurd. Thats like losing your job, having your car repo'd, your house going into forclosure next month and you come home and tell your wife that you should go shopping and that will fix it! THAT is what is ruining us. Quit spending my damn money.

McCain is a road to socialism but he is only going about 50 mph. Obama is full throttle 100 mph.

I'm writing in Ron Paul on my voting card. You may say I'm throwing away my vote. But I say to you, that is you who is throwing away your vote.

{"commentId":3810103,"threadId":"405158","contentId":"2059522","authorDomain":"tirionoyara"}

#1.2 - Fri Oct 31, 2008 5:41 PM EDT

{"commentId":3812260,"authorDomain":"punkjohnnycash"}

Getoutandstayout-

I agree 100%

{"commentId":3812260,"threadId":"405158","contentId":"2059522","authorDomain":"punkjohnnycash"}

1 vote

#1.3 - Fri Oct 31, 2008 9:01 PM EDT

{"commentId":3803309,"authorDomain":"sbutki"}

Scott (Scoop) Butki

Excellent exhaustive explanation, Killfile.

I'll lurk and comment more later. Meanwhile did you see this

Slate piece noting that McCain's own hero, Teddy R., was more socialist than Obama

{"commentId":3803309,"threadId":"405158","contentId":"2059522","authorDomain":"sbutki"}

6 votes

#2 - Fri Oct 31, 2008 11:57 AM EDT

{"commentId":3807285,"authorDomain":"fredegrar"}

fredegrar

I've seen quite a few articles out there delving into the absurdity of the claim. I particularly like the ones with actual socialists who are offended and dumbstruck that McCain's camp would try to tag Obama with the label.

Also wanted to second your kudos for Killfile. I tried writing something similar, but quickly got bogged down in the academic trap - tossed to the circular file.

{"commentId":3807285,"threadId":"405158","contentId":"2059522","authorDomain":"fredegrar"}

#2.1 - Fri Oct 31, 2008 3:18 PM EDT

{"commentId":3813066,"authorDomain":"sbutki"}

Scott (Scoop) Butki

Hmm now that you mention it McCain and McCarthy do have that Mc thing in common. I wonder if McDonalds also contains hyperbole. Wait, does that meal truly make you "happy"? But seriously good piece.
I have heard Jon Stewart and others note that the government has programs some would deem "socialist" but never, until yours, a clear explanation of that argument. So if McCain is truly
antiosocialist he would also have to be anti-social security? Now THAT would be an ad I'd love
to see AARP respond to.

{"commentId":3813066,"threadId":"405158","contentId":"2059522","authorDomain":"sbutki"}

#2.2 - Fri Oct 31, 2008 10:21 PM EDT

{"commentId":3817176,"authorDomain":"punkjohnnycash"}

The whole state of pro-patriot act pro-war thought and politics is extremely McCarthy. We are being led by notions of fear. Only this war is not so cold.

{"commentId":3817176,"threadId":"405158","contentId":"2059522","authorDomain":"punkjohnnycash"}

#2.3 - Sat Nov 1, 2008 8:57 AM EDT

{"commentId":3803360,"authorDomain":"daytoncple"}

daytoncple

Thank you, very well written.

{"commentId":3803360,"threadId":"405158","contentId":"2059522","authorDomain":"daytoncple"}

2 votes

#3 - Fri Oct 31, 2008 12:00 PM EDT

{"commentId":3803534,"authorDomain":"nw-meyer"}

nw-meyer

Excellent article KF, concise and powerful rebuttals for the uninformed and misinformed. You didn't address McCain's vote on the 700 Billion dollar bailout though which goes primarily towards socializing the financial institutions, or the socialist stance he's taken on bailing out the distressed home-owners.

I do believe the Internet could be the undoing of the current GOP paradigm, all those lies laid bare within minutes of hitting the "tubes"!

{"commentId":3803534,"threadId":"405158","contentId":"2059522","authorDomain":"nw-meyer"}

2 votes

#4 - Fri Oct 31, 2008 12:09 PM EDT

{"commentId":3803594,"authorDomain":"gnomey393"}

Ruud Van Bommel

hahahahahhaha stupid Americans...

{"commentId":3803594,"threadId":"405158","contentId":"2059522","authorDomain":"gnomey393"}

#5 - Fri Oct 31, 2008 12:11 PM EDT

{"commentId":3803625,"authorDomain":"vmi64twd"}

Tom or Helen Davis

Our government already has some elements of socialism -- a few more elements might not be bad at all. Helen

{"commentId":3803625,"threadId":"405158","contentId":"2059522","authorDomain":"vmi64twd"}

2 votes

#6 - Fri Oct 31, 2008 12:13 PM EDT

{"commentId":3803674,"authorDomain":"punkjohnnycash"}

Both parties subscribe to socialism to some extent. The country has been moving closer and closer to it and McCain is just calling doing the whole "pot calling the kettle black".

{"commentId":3803674,"threadId":"405158","contentId":"2059522","authorDomain":"punkjohnnycash"}

1 vote

#7 - Fri Oct 31, 2008 12:16 PM EDT

{"commentId":3804722,"authorDomain":"dsykes1973"}

Well Killfile...here is what I am doing....

Due to the indication that Obama maybe elected, I have taken the steps to protect my Family from Obama's increased taxes for my income bracket by setting up a salary deferral under Section 409A of the IRS code. I own my own business so those earnings are taxable anyway so owner distributions are non-taxable. I plan to increase my salary greatly, reducing the business taxable income therefore paying less taxes and defer 100% of my increased salary for my retirement that will now come earlier due to increased salary and tax free savings in the 409A. Then manage the withdrawals from the 409A to minimize taxes (not taking any at all until retirement) while continuing to take salary increase that are deferred 100%. Results according to my CPAs and attorneys that have worked out the plan for me....my personal wealth will go up ( though substantially deferred until needed serving as a retirement plan and a life insurances plan also ), I will pay only about 50% of the taxes I am currently paying on the business and my salary, and the increased salary is completely with in the law as the attorneys have told me to name myself Chairman of the Board that will consist of my Family.....Under those terms the attorneys say I am eligible then to be compensated according to an "area salary survey for regional and local Chairman" which the company Effective Compensation Inc has provided ( Business expense and deductible...thanks taxpayers).....WOW I was under paid no wonder the business was making so much taxable money....now looks like very small taxable profits........So I will exceed the $250,000 by looks like 527% in 2009 and appears to grow annually each year after according to the estimate from the CPAs, pay less taxes than couples filing jointly making $150,000 together under the current tax tables due to the deferrals and the increase "business" expenses for salaries, attorneys and CPAs......Now that is the American way....problem comes up....find the best and brightest people available and these all happen to be Americans....solve the problem....I along with my Family will be much, much better off under the Obama plan and create tremendous wealth for my Family and I will be doing the American thing.....I earned it so I get to keep it....you folks can do the same with the right help or you can "choose" to participate in the "share/spread the wealth" Obama plan.....This is still America and yes I have spent about $225,000 in legal/CPA fees but even that is deductible so the taxpayer helped me reduce my taxes and create Family wealth...THANK YOU SO MUCH and please help me anyway you can......since my salary will be so low do you think I qualify for my "entitlements such as Earned Income Credits, free health ins., food stamps, WIC, Financial Aid, and does anyone know where to sign up for the charity handouts for my very, very small salary.....my gross payroll after the deferrals has been set at only $500 per week which will be taxed appropriately so obviously I qualify for most of these programs.....help a poor man when he's down tell where to sign up! And did everyone know as long as you meet the local/federal child labor standards....you can put not only your wife but also your kids on payroll....just keep them below the limit of having to pay taxes so your Family keeps it all and it also is a tax deduction for the business. Now offering my brother and all his family jobs so the may also use the 409A and reduce the business taxable income even more while working at the Family business......Be careful though.....want to keep enough profit so owner withdrawals do not exceed retained earning according to the CPAs.....or the withdrawals could become taxable....play it to the max but limit it there! Isn't America GREAT....Obama....No Problem Man....sounds like retirement age has now come down to 42 to 44 years old for me....what to do with those extra years with deferred income and no debt as the tax free distributions paid all thye debt off......now to get a large boat...live the winter months in the Caribbean staying over six months making me a non-taxable US citizen.....dog gone it...not even taxes on the deferred amount either....but do not worry upon early retirement age my wife and I are still "entitled" Social Security and they will even mail it to you in the Caribbean....I love this place America now that Obama has forced my hands into seeing how I could have been living all along.

{"commentId":3804722,"threadId":"405158","contentId":"2059522","authorDomain":"dsykes1973"}

2 votes

#8 - Fri Oct 31, 2008 1:11 PM EDT

{"commentId":3805299,"authorDomain":"cliffbourgeois"}

Man of Knowledge

Impressive. You have gone to a lot of trouble to avoid paying your fair share of taxes and are now able to mooch off of the rest of us. You're clearly proud of it. Congratulations.

{"commentId":3805299,"threadId":"405158","contentId":"2059522","authorDomain":"cliffbourgeois"}

6 votes

#8.1 - Fri Oct 31, 2008 1:41 PM EDT

{"commentId":3805440,"authorDomain":"killfile"}

See if you can afford some line-breaks with the extra money you get from not paying your taxes.

{"commentId":3805440,"threadId":"405158","contentId":"2059522","authorDomain":"killfile"}

4 votes

#8.2 - Fri Oct 31, 2008 1:50 PM EDT

{"commentId":3806016,"authorDomain":"BadgerFan"}

No Pain No Gain 101

bla bla bla my personal wealth will go up bla bla bla I earned it so I get to keep it bla bla bla

This is my favorite part.

This is still America and yes I have spent about $225,000 in legal/CPA fees but even that is deductible so the taxpayer helped me reduce my taxes and create Family wealth...THANK YOU SO MUCH and please help me anyway you can......since my salary will be so low do you think I qualify for my "entitlements such as Earned Income Credits, free health ins., food stamps, WIC, Financial Aid, and does anyone know where to sign up for the charity handouts for my very, very small salary.....my gross payroll after the deferrals has been set at only $500 per week which will be taxed appropriately so obviously I qualify for most of these programs.....help a poor man when he's down tell where to sign up! And did everyone know as long as you meet the local/federal child labor standards....you can put not only your wife but also your kids on payroll....just keep them below the limit of having to pay taxes so your Family keeps it all and it also is a tax deduction for the business.

Being a selfish greedy unfair business man is not something to brag about if you are a human being with ideas of community and fellowship. If however, you are pond scum, then I will go on record and say you are the most impressive pond scum posting on Newsvine. Enjoy your wealth, because I am sure it is the only thing your friends and family admire about you.

{"commentId":3806016,"threadId":"405158","contentId":"2059522","authorDomain":"BadgerFan"}

3 votes

#8.3 - Fri Oct 31, 2008 2:15 PM EDT

{"commentId":3806246,"authorDomain":"punkjohnnycash"}

So he is unethical for wanting to keep his money from the people who have said they want to take away from him. I see so then when you get carjacked the individual who is having their car stolen would also be unethical for trying to object. This makes the carjacker the ethical one because he "needed" the car.

No, let me check...

I work hard and succeed so that I can be poor and be told what to do with my earnings.

{"commentId":3806246,"threadId":"405158","contentId":"2059522","authorDomain":"punkjohnnycash"}

1 vote

#8.4 - Fri Oct 31, 2008 2:25 PM EDT

{"commentId":3806414,"authorDomain":"dsykes1973"}

Man of Knowledge...I have been paying my fair share and more....with my city, state and federal income....50-55% almost each and every year.....not really mooching...just taking my turn at receiving rather than giving. Each person may make up their mind and do as they see fit....I perfer for my Family to keep what we earn rather than be forced into spreading wealth around to people I do not know.

This is America and each person has the right to do the very same thing if they would prefer to spread with their family rather than stranges.....share your knowledge with me Man of Knowledge....may I legally use food stamps for Lobster?

{"commentId":3806414,"threadId":"405158","contentId":"2059522","authorDomain":"dsykes1973"}

1 vote

#8.5 - Fri Oct 31, 2008 2:33 PM EDT

{"commentId":3806516,"authorDomain":"dsykes1973"}

No Pain....how is it selfish to keep for my Family all the law "entitles" me to kepp? Not breaking any law what-so-ever....just taking advantage of the ones that exist. How is it better to give money to strangers than to your Family? It aimply is not unfair...if the law allows it and you do not do it...shame on you...I should have started years ago I could have retired a decade ago at 25. The American way is earn your way....not have it handed to you by someone else.

{"commentId":3806516,"threadId":"405158","contentId":"2059522","authorDomain":"dsykes1973"}

2 votes

#8.6 - Fri Oct 31, 2008 2:38 PM EDT

{"commentId":3806672,"authorDomain":"punkjohnnycash"}

No Pain... I suggest if you have it to give you should give it if you feel that is ethical. But forcing others to fall under your convictions is kind of like forcing everyone to follow the same religion isn't it?

{"commentId":3806672,"threadId":"405158","contentId":"2059522","authorDomain":"punkjohnnycash"}

#8.7 - Fri Oct 31, 2008 2:47 PM EDT

{"commentId":3806770,"authorDomain":"dsykes1973"}

Killfile....better than that I will use money to hire a tax deductible employee to type/word process......Thanks for the suggestion! Want a Job?

{"commentId":3806770,"threadId":"405158","contentId":"2059522","authorDomain":"dsykes1973"}

2 votes

#8.8 - Fri Oct 31, 2008 2:52 PM EDT

{"commentId":3806862,"authorDomain":"killfile"}

Sure Denver. If you can afford me.

{"commentId":3806862,"threadId":"405158","contentId":"2059522","authorDomain":"killfile"}

#8.9 - Fri Oct 31, 2008 2:57 PM EDT

{"commentId":3807058,"authorDomain":"dsykes1973"}

Well Great! And let's start our own SPREAD THE WEALTH....with your new salary...now be nice and share with me....OK?

And since you will be a tax deduction for business purposes....we should ask the other taxpayers to approve your salary...Taxpayers...how much do you want to pay Killfile?

Of course I get the final say in all employment issue at my company...so stand by as we wait for an answer from Mr/Ms US Taxpayer

{"commentId":3807058,"threadId":"405158","contentId":"2059522","authorDomain":"dsykes1973"}

1 vote

#8.10 - Fri Oct 31, 2008 3:07 PM EDT

{"commentId":3807518,"authorDomain":"seastar"}

seastar

You, Sir, define what unpatriotic really means...... It's all about you and nothing about country, as if your country had nothing to do with your success. I'll take Obama any day.

{"commentId":3807518,"threadId":"405158","contentId":"2059522","authorDomain":"seastar"}

1 vote

#8.11 - Fri Oct 31, 2008 3:28 PM EDT

{"commentId":3807541,"authorDomain":"dsykes1973"}

Killfile....I am sorry but it looks as though Mr/Ms Taxpayer want to leave you out of my employment ranks.

{"commentId":3807541,"threadId":"405158","contentId":"2059522","authorDomain":"dsykes1973"}

1 vote

#8.12 - Fri Oct 31, 2008 3:30 PM EDT

{"commentId":3807974,"authorDomain":"dsykes1973"}

seastar...how is keeping what I earned for my family rather than giving it to someone I do not know Unpatriotic? Oh yeah I forgot Biden said paying taxes is patriotic. I am all for a fair tax plan.....let's put in a plan that every American gets no dedcutions ( mine are larger than your I am sure of that so I lose here) but we all pay a flat 50% of what we make...I am good with that if all others do the same. And being patriotic to that extent will get the government out of debt. I will be abiding by all laws and major attorey firm and middle size CPA firm conclude that legal and very, very effective. An seastar, thanks byuthe way for being a taxpayer that help foot these tax deductible leagl and accounting bills to set this up. It is getting chilly in Denver seastar...will I see you in the Caribbean this winter season? That is the place I like to winter...how about you?

{"commentId":3807974,"threadId":"405158","contentId":"2059522","authorDomain":"dsykes1973"}

1 vote

#8.13 - Fri Oct 31, 2008 3:50 PM EDT

{"commentId":3808817,"authorDomain":"seastar"}

seastar

I'm all for flat taxes and the Caribbean in winter time and I do think it's sad that our tax structure is rigged so that those who can afford the professional talent get to pay the least. By the way, it also turns out that tax fraud among the top 20%, in terms of earned income, is 40% higher than for the the other 80% (no allegation, whatsoever, implied in your situation). My point is that paying taxes goes with citizenship and with maintaining our country's infrastructure and general economic health, especially when our life-style is coming under ever increasing pressure due to globalization. Undoing the Bush taxcuts hardly qualifies as "socialism". That is not to say that our country can't be run far more efficiently. Now that the The R's have had their shot and clearly blown it, let's give Obama a shot before we tag him with a label that is based on nothing but partisan fear mongering.

{"commentId":3808817,"threadId":"405158","contentId":"2059522","authorDomain":"seastar"}

1 vote

#8.14 - Fri Oct 31, 2008 4:29 PM EDT

{"commentId":3809644,"authorDomain":"killfile"}

Well said Seastar. While it's tempting to get involved in a dick-measuring contest with our bank accounts here, the topic at hand is politics, not net worth.

As Denver points out, our tax code has been corrupted by unpatriotic, america-hating (as the Bush Administration might say), jackholes (as senator McCain might say) who want to use their money to get out of their duties as citizens of this great country, making our progressive tax structure flatter than it really should be.

All of which really should highlight exactly how pathetic this charge of socialism is in the first place.

{"commentId":3809644,"threadId":"405158","contentId":"2059522","authorDomain":"killfile"}

2 votes

#8.15 - Fri Oct 31, 2008 5:15 PM EDT

{"commentId":3809819,"authorDomain":"dsykes1973"}

I am glad to hear about flat tax is a good idea. I think you may have missed the point that I plan to begin being out of the country for greater than 6 months a year at retirement which is now very close....therefore even though I will no longer be required to pay US taxes nor virtually any Costa Rica taxes....I will need to support the infrastructure of the place I live...i.e. Costa Rica perhaps...Most of their popiulation has college education...taxes are lower...they even have a community of retire Americans call "Little America" that has approx 500,000 homes, malls, restaurants etc....and a Mayo Clinic. Don't worry about fraud...this plan has been drawn out and executed by a major national law firm and blessed by the tax CPA of a national middle size CPA firm...all legit and very very effective to make use of the law and not be burdened by taxes.....one lawyer even suggested that we Joint Venture a book on how to accomplish this amazing feat. Like I said....my family will get a break and not be over taxed....last 5 years my fed, state and local income taxes have ranged between 50-55% leaving 1/2 or less for my family....fair in your opinion? Let's all pay 50% of what we make...no deductions...just mail in 50%.....make a million...pay 500,000....make 30,000...pay 15,000..all fair and what America should be about in my opinion.

{"commentId":3809819,"threadId":"405158","contentId":"2059522","authorDomain":"dsykes1973"}

1 vote

#8.16 - Fri Oct 31, 2008 5:25 PM EDT

{"commentId":3810041,"authorDomain":"dsykes1973"}

Killfile...I do not think that all American paying the same % with absolutely no deductions in unpatriotic....As an example...I have six years of education after high school and I am required to have CPE to keep my license which I do not use but desire to keep.....maybe because of my skill sets I earn more....but do I deserve to pay taxes under a high % than the cook at the grill or the Doctor at the hospital or the retail clerk at the mall....we are suppose to be all equal.....let's all pay our % and be patriotic....or some of us will opt to use the tools we have or can afford and my taxes can be even lees than the retail clerk at the mall....and still not breaking any laws just providing a future for my family. Why should I be forced into giving up a greater % of my family earned income than others?

{"commentId":3810041,"threadId":"405158","contentId":"2059522","authorDomain":"dsykes1973"}

1 vote

#8.17 - Fri Oct 31, 2008 5:37 PM EDT

{"commentId":3810220,"authorDomain":"dsykes1973"}

My real estate pays more taxes in Denver than the average by far....I usually take toll roads and pay as I go when available....I pay sale taxes on my purchases which are greater than the average for the county, state, and local government....I pay mass transit taxes without a complaint even though I do not use mass transit....so on and so forth...an argument certainly can be made that those in the higher income bracket use less government services and less infrastructure than the middle/lower classes....my family never goes to the county clinic...uses mass transit...goes to public schools...we buy books and use the web rather than use the library....etc...yes we certainly do use some of the goods and services the government offers....but pay for many so other may use them and we have no intent to use them...ever.

{"commentId":3810220,"threadId":"405158","contentId":"2059522","authorDomain":"dsykes1973"}

1 vote

#8.18 - Fri Oct 31, 2008 5:49 PM EDT

{"commentId":3822957,"authorDomain":"hmm"}

Chuck1968

Man of Knowledge

Impressive. You have gone to a lot of trouble to avoid paying your fair share of taxes and are now able to mooch off of the rest of us. You're clearly proud of it. Congratulations.

Yep, people like this love to sponge --No amount of money is enough for them. Not only are they not happy enough with their financial success, they get more enjoyment making sure others don't have it. It's a sickness.

Every time I hear one of these idiots throw their little tantrums over tax breaks for the middle class, I always picture Golum stroking his "precious" ring---it's just like these aholes and money.

{"commentId":3822957,"threadId":"405158","contentId":"2059522","authorDomain":"hmm"}

1 vote

#8.19 - Sat Nov 1, 2008 4:03 PM EDT

{"commentId":3827061,"authorDomain":"grog"}

grog

Hey Denver,
I've been using a salary deferral under Section 409A for about three years but due to the risk of losing all that I have in the account I have decided to stop using it and actually start pulling funds out.

Make sure you fully understand how the account works and what it means to your business.
Be aware that it is possible that you could loose it all. There are way too may rules that can screw you that in my opinion out weigh the advantages.

Ask your CPA's and attorneys. If they tell you there is no risk - fire them.

{"commentId":3827061,"threadId":"405158","contentId":"2059522","authorDomain":"grog"}

1 vote

#8.20 - Sat Nov 1, 2008 9:06 PM EDT

{"commentId":3828772,"authorDomain":"dsykes1973"}

Chuckie....maybe you should have went to have the advanced skill that is necessary to be like me and Barrack...Skills are what is important....I have the tools and ability to not do what MR OBAMA wants spread the wealth and I WILL NOT......but you will help pay for my attorneys...my lawyers...and Killfile if he ends up as an employee...(Killfile...looks doubtful at this point but I will keep the faith up that Mr/Ms Taxpayer will suggest a fair wage that they are willing to share and you accept)....Oh well.....pay your taxes Chuckie so a portion of it can help support me as I have many tax deduction that it sounds as though you do not.....taking a BUSINESS partner and his wife out to dinner tonight with of course me and my wife...and you pick up part of the tab....THANK YOU!

Grog...structure is the most important thing.......the way this law firm sat up the plan is not risk except for wages and taxes......we have a direct lien on the assets (which are mine anyway) the only people that can come in front of us in time of trouble...IRS (attorney say not ever going to happen) and wages...which are understandable...I AM good to go and I will only play this game a short while.....Looking at Costa Rica Real Estate on the web this weekend and pla to be there in a month or so....Chuckie can keep paying his social security and the Change group will mail it to me in me big new home....severants are very dedicated there and not expensive at all......it looks like the 3rd largest Mayo Clinic will accept all my insurance....I am good to go....Chuckie send your money to me...THANK YOU@!

The CHANGE IS COMING...AND I will take advantage of it.....thank ouy Obama and Change....I will probably retier after looking ta it this weekend and the change we are making........at 41....NOW THAT IS TRUE CHANGE!!!!!!!!

See You in the Caribbean!!!! Year Round soon!!!! Keep my SS checks coming though when I reach 62 as I might need additional WATERSPORT TOYS to play with.....THANK YOU

{"commentId":3828772,"threadId":"405158","contentId":"2059522","authorDomain":"dsykes1973"}

1 vote

#8.21 - Sat Nov 1, 2008 10:58 PM EDT

{"commentId":3829859,"authorDomain":"dsykes1973"}

Chuckie...guess you are not out there tonight...maybe you will see later....here is my point...I workered two jobe and went to school (college) at the same time...yes I have an advance college degree...and I worked for it....From all the press Obama had his GIVEN TO HIM...now....pay back is a B**** or at least a pain...Good news is that I would not want his job...a lot of the CRAZY people are out ther and will be a continued problem....but with my plan...I make a LOT....repeat ALOT more for my family allowing them to go to the school that Obama went to (no afirmative action will help me childeren but Obama....????) than Mr Obama as Pres...should he get there....I have hire better lawyer than he is....EASY STREET COMING FOR ME> I just found a 5000 Sq Ft house in Costa Rica...pool...green house...hot tub...orchard...Servant house....my problem for my legal guys.....does tax free section 1031 exchange work for this......KPMG are you out there.....

{"commentId":3829859,"threadId":"405158","contentId":"2059522","authorDomain":"dsykes1973"}

1 vote

#8.22 - Sun Nov 2, 2008 12:32 AM EDT

{"commentId":3830252,"authorDomain":"dsykes1973"}

Chuckie....I have thought about it...you may deserve more than you are getting.....ever think about a career change? Our Government protects a huge amount of labor & products etc that are not competitive in the Golobal economy we are in......but then we MUST do as nature does......sacrifice the weak to save the herd...I Truly hope you agree with that.....if we can not built a car, a computer, a steel plate as good and inexpensive and of the same quality as Canada. Mexico. China. Japan....we lose.......most larger companies are international now...they will leave if we are not the best deal in town.....I and most Americans but the best deal in town.....ever heard or shoped at Walmart....I do and most Ameerican do also!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!

{"commentId":3830252,"threadId":"405158","contentId":"2059522","authorDomain":"dsykes1973"}

1 vote

#8.23 - Sun Nov 2, 2008 1:17 AM EDT

{"commentId":3835958,"authorDomain":"hmm"}

Chuck1968

Really , hmmm... I served my country, paid for my education and graduated while working and caring for my son, worked for a worthless crap Worldcom while they raped their employees via accounting fraud, watched company after company spend the money that was for pensions (stolen from their employees, as usual), started my own biz 7 years 8 months ago which has only a few employees...and yeah, like you, I could milk them for all they are worth, so I could have every single possible freakin nickel for me, me ME! but I dont. The biz is healthy because I CARE about these people not just about profits. They are ASSETS to this company not just expenses. I have the best crews, they are happy, their families are happy, they can afford health insurance because I pay them far MORE than the going rate --what they truly deserve and they will all tell you that as well.

WHY? because the entire reason I am in business is for PEOPLE, to earn an HONEST decent living, not just one that is legal but ethical as well. Maybe when you grow up you will finally learn this. One can only hope.

The measure of success to you is the stack of money you can pile up ...the measure of success to me is how many lives did I positively affect (financially and otherwise) through my efforts.

No, I do NOT believe we should sacrifice the weak to save the herd. Is there a reason you think you should be sacrificed?

Have a great time in the Caribbean --you and your little pot o' money. lol!!!

{"commentId":3835958,"threadId":"405158","contentId":"2059522","authorDomain":"hmm"}

3 votes

#8.24 - Sun Nov 2, 2008 2:28 PM EST

{"commentId":3805983,"authorDomain":"stevencwatts"}

Steve Watts

Good to see you took up my suggestion, Killfile, and I think the article turned out very well. I think that particular meme is starting to wear off, especially with McCain admitting himself it wasn't quite true, but some people are probably going to cling to it all the way to the election and beyond.

{"commentId":3805983,"threadId":"405158","contentId":"2059522","authorDomain":"stevencwatts"}

2 votes

#9 - Fri Oct 31, 2008 2:14 PM EDT

{"commentId":3806110,"authorDomain":"killfile"}