Obama's Intelligence Director: "The bottom line is these techniques [torture] have hurt our image around the world, the damage they have done to our interests far outweighed whatever benefit they gave us and they are not essential to our national security

if there is no way of knowing that the information could have been gotten another way... how can one be ceratin that the techniques are not essential to national security.

if you can't get the info another way, attack happens, national security down the tubes.

if you can get the info another way, attack prevented, nation security preserved.

the problem is you don't have enough info to say which of the above is correct...therefore you can't say it is not essential to national security.

I would say if we caught Osama bin Laden we could assume he has information pertaining to attacks on the US.

so if we catch someone we know to be a leader of a cell or the person organizing militants. is it not a safe assumption that this person knows something?

it's not like they are doing this to everyone they pick up.

there are no easy answers here. so why take the option completely off the table when credible information can be obtained? why not revise what can be done, when it can be done and to who.

I don't think anyone can say that the torture of KSM lead directly to the foiling of the second wave attacks, the connection seems shaky. From the fourth memo:

More specifically, we understand that KSM admitted he had tasked Maiid Khan With delivering a large sum of money to an Al Qaeda associate. Khan subsequently identified the associate (Zubair), who was then captured. Zubair, in turn, provided information that led to the arrest of Hambali. The information acquired from these captures allowed CIA interrogators to pose more specific questions to KSM, which led the CIA Hambali's brother, al-Hadi Using information obtained from multiple sources, al-Hadi Was captured, and he subsequently identified the Guraba cell. With the aid of this additional information, interrogations of Hambali Confirmed much of what was learned from KSM

Just found out that the plot was not foiled by intelligence, just uncovered. The plot had been cancelled since February of 2002, when one of the four operatives assigned with carrying it out, Masran bin Arshad, was arrested in Malaysia. So by the time KSM was tortured, there was no danger of this attack occuring.

Actually, George Carlin said it best when talking about war:

Quote: "I've got this real moron thing I do, it's called 'Thinking' And I guess I'm not a very good American, because I like to form my own opinions. I see [war] largely as an exercise in dick-waving...alot of men standing around in a field waving their dicks at one another. Men, insecure about the size of their penises, choose to kill one another."

That's one of the reasons I always liked George Carlin. May he rest in peace and thanks for the common sense that doesn't seem to be so common anymore.

Although i agree with your statement about human right abuse, Today society are into a POLITCAL CORRECT MODE OR LEGITIMATE POLICY OF AMERICA.....reality is counter-terrorism is more complicated than that, job is to gain access to useful intelligence (terrorist wont just hand over information) and intelligence timing is critical (911 intelligence have been our downfall - not able to recognized the threat on time).

Intelligence gathering may include spying , kidnapping and harsh interrogation all of these are done to fight our enemy.....its easy to say...the key is to find a way to fight terrorism without becoming terrorists ourselves.......my question to you is HOW

we don't care about anyone else's human right abuses anymore... clinton said china's abuses would not get in the way of doing business. that's the biggest example that I can give...

my question to you is HOW

Time tested intelligence field work?

IMHO, exceptional measures and methods should be used (if they are to be used at all) for extraordinary situations. I can understand (not condone it) the mindset to use harsh methods right after 9-11, but the government institutionalized its use over time, and it became the routine... used well beyond extraordinary conditions.

time tested intelligence field work....failed us during 911....we know they are in the country training for flight school but cant jump the gun until they finally orchestrated their evil plan....

intelligence authority fail simply because we dont want to violate their human rights or any of their rights as protected by constitution.......result 911

like i said ...HOW?....exceptional measure and method!!!!....like what..care to explain ?

time tested intelligence field work....failed us during 911

That's one way to say it. Another might be that our intelligence infrastructure was gutted after the cold war. Desperation and confusion sets in after 911... and we take the path of least resistance to fill in the gaps.

we dont want to violate their human rights or any of their rights as protected by constitution

You want to go down that path? Are you really that scared now? Perhaps it was a failure of our intelligence community and a leadership with preset plans to carry out another agenda?

You want to go down that path?.....scared of what?...look how many people are more concern (including you) about how we treat this terrorist...are you that naive to forgot how many people was killed during 911 attack....yet we are arguing on how to treat these terrorist correctly....so what the difference with the terrorist present plans and agenda with our harsh treatment of terrorist?............ANSWER NONE...NOTHING AT ALL...thats reality....

back to the question which you been avoiding....care to explain your..EXCEPTIONAL MEASURE AND METHOD?........answer pls.

scared?....i spent 2 tour in iraq...you what did you do since 911?...oh yeah keyboard

care to explain your..EXCEPTIONAL MEASURE AND METHOD?........answer pls

waterboarding (torture), beatings, you know those methods that we signed a treaty stating that we'd never participate in , let alone institutionalize.

You're not scared, then stop condoning methods would speak otherwise.

scared?....i spent 2 tour in iraq...you what did you do since 911?...oh yeah keyboard

Thanks for your service. No thanks for your assumptions.

Would you believe someone who said, "Oops, sorry, we won't torture anymore, not that we ever did in the first place, we called it something else, but, honest, we quit!"

I don't mean this sarcastically - but according to the media Obama has healed our reputation and every other leader is ready to follow him. Why is that not enough?

Our reputation hasn't been healed. It's been improved, certainly... but there has been damage done which, it's possible, may never be repaired.

Extremely irresponsible statement, Steve.

You're assuming that torture had a direct effect on us not being attacked.

Furthermore you are calling for another attack on innocent civilians to illustrate your point.

You call it irresponsible, I call it reality and what it takes for some people to wake up. However, as suspected the latter part of my statement was overlooked.....by choice no doubt. So I will repost it.

I do not wish harm on anyone, but sometimes the only way people "wake up" is if an event occurs in their life that leaves them no other choice but to change.

You're assuming that torture had a direct effect on us not being attacked.

Well according to the ABC news spot and the Washington Post article, the information did prevent a west coast attack.

Since when did our image become more important that saving thousands of Americans from a second attack or multiple attacks?

I think you're missing the point... I'll simplify it: If America isn't hated, we won't be attacked.

Just playing devil's advocate, Steve (because I don't know whether you are liberal or conservative) -- you're statement is relying on two MSM outlets (some would say liberal) to bolster a conservative argument...

(It just is interesting to me how many "conservatives" -- whether you count yourself as one or not, I don't know -- rail against the bias of the liberal MSM and then use their pieces to defend their positions... LOL)

If America isn't hated, we won't be attacked.

To be honest, while I usually agree with you, I think that's a slight oversimplification. We're the biggest kid on the block, someone is always is going to have reason to think we're the one they need to pick a fight with.

But that said, when they do, if we stoop to the level of using torture, we simply create the next generation of terrorists. The cycle of violence continues. If we want lasting peace, we have to put an end to it.

Well according to the ABC news spot and the Washington Post article, the information did prevent a west coast attack.

And we know this for certain how? Do we know what timeframe this information was gathered in? What other techniques were used? Do we even know that it's true (It doesn't sound like we can independantly verify it)?

Steve W in MD,

I can't believe you're hoping for another attack on the US just so you can make a point that Obama's approach is wrong. It doesn't surprise me though, right-wingers are a bunch of nuts when it comes to their insane ideas about the world. Please explain what the acronym NID stands for?

Your "wishing no harm on anyone" at the end of your previous post was just a lie, used to hide your true wishes of another attack on innocent Americans just so you FOX News Nuts can say "I told you so." I pray that the ignorant actions of Bush/Cheenee don't cause another attack for you clowns to gloat on.

If your position carried any credibility, you wouldn't have to stoop to wishing harm upon others. Sad

You're right, LordFluffy, it is an oversimplification, I should have stated so, rather than just saying I was simplifying. I do that, sometimes, when somebody is completely missing the point, I'll try to label it correctly.

Julian:

NID = National Intelligence Director

"It doesn't surprise me though, right-wingers are a bunch of nuts when it comes to their insane ideas about the world." -Julian in Dallas.

*Sigh*

Julian - I really get tired of such generalizations. It sounds as though you are saying that all "right-wingers" feel the same. And then you basically say that all "right-wingers" are by default of the previous administration both ignorant and gloating clowns. if you are going to point a finger then perhaps you should consider your own faults in this post. Furthermore, opinions are subjective and very individual and I haven't a problem with your opinions. I have a problem with you unjustly attacking others instead of keeping your opinion of one comment directed at the person you are addressing. If you seriously feel compelled to make such ignorant generalizations when trying to make a point about one persons comments then do not find it any surprise when you are no longer looked to by others for intelligent conversation. Finally, you are but one person among a great many with opinions. In no circumstance that I can think of does that make you an expert on opinions.

I guess some of you simply cannot "get it". Considering I was exactly 1 mile from the Pentagon on 9.11, I can assure you this is not something I want repeated.

But it is obvious to see that some of you are not able to understand how people learn. Some people don't learn until something in their life forces them to make changes or realize their beliefs are misguided. Just as on 9.12 we as a Nation realized we can be hurt, regardless of how infallable we think we are and many of us learned valuable lessons that day and made life changing decisions, but many did not learn a damned thing.

For some of you to think that if America isn't hated, then the attacks will stop is simply naive. For these Muslim extremists, this is about converting all those to Islam ( their version of it) and if not, labeling you as an infidel marked for death. These animals will slaughter ( and have) their own kind if they do not follow their version of Islam.

We are supporters of the Jewish state of Israel and always will be, therefore that is the other segway these extremists use to conduct their hatred towards the United States.

My political beliefs are pretty much "centrist" , I had many criticisms of Bush 1, Clinton, Bush2 and I have a few with Obama already. But my largest criticisms are with my fellow citizens of this Country, who keep elected the same shuck and jive politicians to office, who on many cases have clearly sold us out and it's not limited to just one party.

I can accept the truth and if I am wrong in my opinion I will apologize, but I am not blinded by the political rhetoric or the smooth talking policy makers who play on your emotions.......and succeed.

Bush made some serious mistakes in office and it will take some time to correct them. Obama is obviously clueless on many issues and is quite naive on world events, which is evident.

And we know this for certain how? Do we know what timeframe this information was gathered in? What other techniques were used? Do we even know that it's true (It doesn't sound like we can independantly verify it)?

Apparently the memos were released that contained the information these two sources needed to qualify their articles. The Washington Post is certainly not a fan of the GOP, so so they really don't gain anything by writing pieces that support the Bush administrations torture policy...so there must be some truth in there.

However I would be interested, like most here, to see all the memo's in their entirety so we the people can make an honest assessment of who did what to who, did we or did we not learn anything and were other attacks actually prevented.

Currently only segments of these memos are being released, which obviously keeps the hysteria going.

Steve.

The interrogation of KSM did not prevent the Second Wave attacks on the west coast, It only uncovered the fact that they had been plotted. The attacks had been cancelled since February 2002, when Masran bin Arshad, the leader of the operatives assigned to carry them out, was arrested in Malaysia. They had been cancelled for more than a year by the time KSM was interrogated, and it took another 6 months to uncover the information proving the attacks had at one point been plotted.

The interrogation of KSM did not prevent the Second Wave attacks on the west coast, It only uncovered the fact that they had been plotted.

Let's let the release of the memos decide, not HuffPo or your own assuptions.

Steve, good posts. Seems we need to repeatedly remind the libs that it is their values and lifestyle that the islams hate. Muslims actually respect and fear strength.

Oh, I'm sorry Tango, I didn't realize that Time Magazine had been bought by HuffPo way back in October 2003 when this aritcle was written. My bad, looks like I sure stuck my foot in my mouth...

Here's the full text of the memos if you want to read them. The stuff about the second wave is in the fourth one.

Oh, and here's the press release from the Bush Admin saying it was cancelled in February 2002.

Seems we need to repeatedly remind the libs that it is their values and lifestyle that the islams hate

And what values are those that you're referring to? You condone and defend the use of torture... and throw the baby out with the bathwater.

Faust. The muslim extremists are religious conservatives, I think that explains what the Muslims depise about Liberal ideology.

All of the Memos have not been released yet, so let's not pretend they have been.

All of the Memos have not been released yet, so let's not pretend they have been.

Cheney's walking a fine line. Like my dad would tell me...be careful of what you wish for, you may just get it.

Obama and Cheney are both walking a fine line in this situation.

However Dick Cheney is very precise in his actions and he wouldn't be pressing this issue if he knew he would be wrong.

Obama on the other hand, is teetering and unsure, so this tells me that Obama's administration is set up to be on the losing side in this debacle and if this proves correct, his Presidency (politically speaking) is over long before 2012.

Not to mention the fall-out with the Congressional members who had first-hand knowledge.

We will have to wait and see.

No offense but I disagree. Cheney and friends come off as having to prove there right not that they are right. Kinda like telling the same lie over and over to get people to believe you. A lie is still a lie and no matter how many times you say the sky is purple it's still blue. Same tactics used during the election and it won't work. The general population isn't as dumb as they wish for us to be (take Newsvine users for example).

As far as Obama's concerned here is a tip. The more those of you that are still sore about losing the election keep trying to toss him out of office before his term is up the stronger those that support him will voice you can't. Not only that but if he truly turns the screw-ups Bush made around and gets the economy back on track with people back to work it will kill any chance for the Republican Party to regain a foothold for the next 8 years. You want a chance to regain that foothold then stop the whining and take steps to correct parts of our current problems. Don't fight against the President but come up with better solutions. You can change for the better and draw people back or whine like little losers and send people away. Doesn't matter to me because I'm an Independent and at the end of the day I'll still vote or the best of my choices.

Wow you think Bush is the one who screwed up the economy? Problems started long before he took office, but thats another seed.

Lets see Clinton had the National debt to it's lowest point and Bush got it to it's highest point. Post the link to that seed and I'll post the records for the debt.

Problems started long before he took office, but thats another seed.

This may be of help. Depends upon which Bush you're talking about...

I think after 6 times we also know his mothers recipe for biscuits, he if believed will someday have ships like Enterprise flying at warp speed, and that Area 51 has alien remains....but hey that's just me.

Good Luck and take care on this one. Got a feeling it's gonna be a hot one.

As a veteran I think the very worst thing that has happened is that non veterans were allowed to formulate and promulgate this policy.

If you notice that out of all the people who put this torture policy together none of them were, or had ever been soldiers. And in fact almost without exception all of them were draft dodgers, with the two biggest culprits being Cheney and Rumsfield.

Men of low courage should never be allowed to formulate policy that demeans or denigrates the sacrifice of our combat troops. As a veteran that is the single thing that I find the most offensive about what they did.

They dishonored the sacrifice of our sons and daughters that have fell in or been wounded in battle as well as the memory of the true patriots of Flight 93 who killed the terrorist and themselves by crashing that plane rather than let that plane go any further and possibly kill vastly greater numbers of Americans.

Their is no honor or glory in cheating to win, and torture is just that cheating and what did we gain by it in my opinion nothing. And no one can point to anything, and truthfully no one tries to point to anything except Dick Cheney and a few other lying Republicans who are playing CYA and truthfully speaking any claim that they make must be scrutinized very carefully under the Mushroom Clouds of Saddams Husseins WMD.