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Lies, Damn Lies, and Statistics: The Tea Party Is Far From Mainstream

Mon Apr 5, 2010 1:14 PM EDT
politics, gop, democrats, republican, tea-party, poll, lies, statistics, teabaggers, polling, gallup, winston-group, indepdendents
By Killfile

This is not "Mainstream" (Source unknown)

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The banner headline kicking around the political blogs today comes from Gallup: "Tea Partiers Are Fairly Mainstream in Their Demographics." Gallup's survey comes on the heals of another set of numbers published by the Winston group which also sparked headline from a number of major outlets. The Hill is carrying the Winston numbers under the headline "Survey: Four in 10 Tea Party members are Dems or independents" while the LA Times leads with "Myth-busting polls: Tea Party members are average Americans, 41% are Democrats, independents."

Then there's the oft-quoted Mark Twain: "There are three kinds of lies: lies, damned lies, and statistics."


Behind the headlines, the numbers tell their own story. Gallup reports that 28% of Americans consider themselves to be supporters of the Tea Party. 26% oppose it and the remainder - a full 46% of the population - either doesn't know or doesn't care.

To put Gallup's numbers another way, just six percent more Americans count themselves supporters of the Tea Party than approved of George W. Bush's job as President on his last day in office. Winston reports that about 17% of Americans consider themselves to be Tea Party members, a figure within the margin of error for the percentage of Americans who claim to have seen a UFO.

Gallup also tells us that Tea Partiers are nearly twice as likely to be Republicans as the average American adult and four times less likely to be Democrats. The headline-statistic claiming that "41% are Democrats or Independents" derives from the Winston numbers but glosses over the distinction between the two. Combining the numbers differently, Winston could just as accurately state that just 13% of Tea Partiers are Democrats and the remaining 87% are either Republicans or Independents. Exactly how independent those "Independents" are is of some concern as well. Winston's own trend-lines from 2002-2008 suggest that a lot of today's independents are one-time Republicans who jumped ship during the Bush years. While it would be interesting to determine how many of the Tea Partiers were "Independents" before 2002, that information is not available.

In light of this, suggesting that the Tea Party is a somehow representative slice of the electorate seems either disingenuous or deliberately misleading. A group that is twice as conservative as the general population and under-represents a major party by a factor of four is not "average" or "mainstream;" it is, almost by definition, the radical fringe.

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  • Public Discussion (254)
Jump to discussion page: 1 2
Killfile

American politics is "big tent" meaning that since we have two major parties you get all kinds within those parties. It's no major shock to me that there will be some Democrats who think the Tea Party is a great idea.

But to pretend that the Democrats make up anywhere near the percentage of the Tea Party as the Republicans do is absurd. Republicans are about 60% of the teabaggers. A little quick math tells you that this means that they outnumber Democrats in the Tea Party four to one.

This is not a main-stream group. It is, for all meaningful intents and purposes, a subset of the Republican Party save that, in a few cases, it is actually appreciably more radical than the GOP, particularly in its willful denial of Keynesian economic principles.

  • 44 votes
#1 - Mon Apr 5, 2010 1:18 PM EDT
jedipunk

A little quick math tells you that this means that they outnumber Democrats in the Tea Party four to one.

How is 60% = 4 to 1?

4-to-1 means 1 in every 5 is dem/indep which would mean repubs make 80% (4/5) of the tea party not 60%.

To make it 60% would mean 2 in 5 are dem/indep or that dem/indep are outnumbered 2 to 3.

Am I missing something?

  • 14 votes
#1.1 - Mon Apr 5, 2010 3:20 PM EDT
Jason Coleman

@Jedipunk

Yes, you are missing something. Mainly:

just 13% of Tea Partiers are Democrats

60% / 13% ≈ 4

  • 17 votes
#1.2 - Mon Apr 5, 2010 3:40 PM EDT
Killfile

60% Republicans... 13% Democrats (~40% Democrats and Independents)

It's actually 4.6 (60/13 = 4.6...) to one, but I was being charitable.

  • 35 votes
#1.3 - Mon Apr 5, 2010 3:42 PM EDT
joe-dude

"The Tea party Is Far From Mainstream"

They are light-years from being rational, normal, and sane as well...

  • 48 votes
#1.4 - Mon Apr 5, 2010 4:38 PM EDT
redsfan

As long as they keep pulling this kind of crap, Americans will turn away from them more and more...

State Sen. Shannon Jones [R] has dropped out of a Tea Party rally to be held on Saturday, April 17, in Springboro, Ohio, citing “racially insensitive remarks” on an organizer’s web site.

“Senator Jones is not going to be attending that event and is no longer going to affiliate herself with that organization,” said Brittney Colvin, campaign manager for Jones.

Jones was planning to participate in the April 17 event promoted by the Springboro Tea Party, Colvin said. She changed her mind after learning of “really racially insensitive” comments about Hispanics on a Twitter site maintained by Sonny Thomas, organizer of the rally.

Local Tea Parties Draw Scrutiny Over Racist Remarks

  • 36 votes
#1.5 - Mon Apr 5, 2010 4:54 PM EDT
RACHEL1-933952

Good for her!! Now, if more would stand up and act.

  • 26 votes
#1.6 - Mon Apr 5, 2010 5:05 PM EDT
GA GUY

(Sigh...)

Legitimization requires more than the simple declaration...even if the numbers held water...

...But I loved the sign in the photo...scary as hell; but an effective deterrent to the "movement"...

  • 23 votes
#1.7 - Mon Apr 5, 2010 5:18 PM EDT
MotherKnowsBest-719453Deleted
jedipunk

60% Republicans... 13% Democrats (~40% Democrats and Independents)

Got it. I was grouping D and I together.

  • 11 votes
#1.9 - Mon Apr 5, 2010 7:01 PM EDT
The Spirit

Yeah, let's just ignore all the polls we don't like. What is this Gallup outfit, anyway? Who's even heard of them?

  • 7 votes
#1.10 - Mon Apr 5, 2010 9:45 PM EDT
Steve Watts

Did you even read the article, Spirit?

  • 25 votes
#1.11 - Mon Apr 5, 2010 9:47 PM EDT
GA GUY

Was that an emotional response, or did you have something specific to refute the article's points?

I have never liked polling that lumps unlike groups together in the reporting...it's almost always a slanted approach, or an attempt at obfuscation...

...much like a lot of the recent polling on HCR...

  • 15 votes
#1.12 - Mon Apr 5, 2010 9:50 PM EDT
Citizen Kane-473667

Hey as long as we are crunching numbers 35%-28%=7%. What do these numbers represent?

35% (Democrats) 28% (Tea Party Supporter's)=7% more support for the Democratic Party than for the Tea Party

Wow. You guys have good reason to be nervous........

You better get a bigger Racist/Terrorist/Homo/Bigot paint brush. The one you are using isn't working very well......

  • 9 votes
#1.13 - Mon Apr 5, 2010 10:08 PM EDT
GA GUY

?...Now do the same for the Republican Party...

  • 13 votes
#1.14 - Mon Apr 5, 2010 10:10 PM EDT
Citizen Kane-473667

LOL! I bet the Republicans can't even match the support the Tea Party has right now!

Palin must have been mis-quoted; I think she actually must have said "Bail Baby, BAIL!!!"

  • 7 votes
#1.15 - Mon Apr 5, 2010 10:33 PM EDT
chimpshellDeleted
Citizen Kane-473667

Here is another twist on those figures of 35% Democrats and 28% Tea Party supporters. As noted, 14% of the supporters of the Tea Party are Democrats. That narrows that &% advantage in popularity by a few more oints wouldn't you say? So really, the Tea Party and the Tea Party are close to being even in popularity.

Go figure....

PS. Republicans were at 34% before the Tea Party GA Guy so I guess we can call it an even split (almost) for popularity these days....

  • 4 votes
#1.17 - Mon Apr 5, 2010 10:58 PM EDT
Ninbyo

How many of those independents are former Republicans that jumped ship.

  • 10 votes
#1.18 - Mon Apr 5, 2010 11:06 PM EDT
logdump

A lot.

  • 10 votes
#1.19 - Mon Apr 5, 2010 11:46 PM EDT
dcstone01

http://panicklaus.newsvine.com/_news/2010/04/05/4119338-tea-partiers-are-fairly-mainstream-in-their-demographics?threadId=834486&commentId=13413586#c13413586

Seem to really 'challenge' Killfile's article...

They believe it...and are singing it praises and lambasting 'liberals'....

  • 10 votes
#1.20 - Tue Apr 6, 2010 12:27 AM EDT
The Incredulous One

Winston reports that about 17% of Americans consider themselves to be Tea Party members, a figure within the margin of error for the percentage of Americans who claim to have seen a UFO.

Another silly comment made in KF's inimitable (thank God) style...which reminds me, taking some more info from that link, that Democrats and liberals are none too bright. Otherwise, how do you explain that

By 31 percent to 18 percent, more liberals than conservatives report seeing a specter.

A bunch of you, mostly liberals, have seen ghosts.

Democrats were more superstitious than Republicans over opening umbrellas indoors, while liberals were more superstitious than conservatives over four-leaf clovers, grooms seeing brides and umbrellas.

Thanks for the link, KF. Confirms what I've always known about the delusions of you "progressive" types. (see any ghosts lately?)

  • 4 votes
#1.21 - Tue Apr 6, 2010 1:04 AM EDT
economics101

What people should see as scary is that given the disinterest in voting in this country this could be a significant group .... now who might their candidate be?

  • 7 votes
#1.22 - Tue Apr 6, 2010 2:34 AM EDT
Killfile

Not all of us have your apparent gift for instantly recognizing the proximate meaning of a number, TIO. Illustrating 17% in terms of something that's more readily available to the average reader - the number of Americans who claim to have seen a UFO - helps contextualize the figure.

Just because you don't like the contextualization doesn't make it invalid.

  • 21 votes
#1.23 - Tue Apr 6, 2010 8:23 AM EDT
Therese Nelson

I do not believe those in the Tea Party are all fringe people with questionable actions.

  • 6 votes
#1.24 - Tue Apr 6, 2010 8:37 AM EDT
Therese Nelson

Article in part and link on Tea Party members

http://www.latimes.com/news/opinion/commentary/la-oe-ellis25-2010feb25,0,3374643.story

A poll debunks assumptions about the movement, showing that it's largely middle-class, college-educated, white and male.

End of Article in part and link

  • 2 votes
#1.25 - Tue Apr 6, 2010 8:43 AM EDT
Therese Nelson

Another Article of Tea Party members

http://www.cnn.com/2010/POLITICS/04/02/democrats.tea.party/

Grand Junction, Colorado (CNN) -- They are not typical Tea Party activists: A woman who voted for President Obama and believes he's a "phenomenal speaker." Another who said she was a "knee-jerk, bleeding heart liberal."

These two women are not alone.

Some Americans who say they have been sympathetic to Democratic causes in the past -- some even voted for Democratic candidates -- are angry with President Obama and his party. They say they are now supporting the Tea Party -- a movement that champions less government, lower taxes and the defeat of Democrats even though it's not formally aligned with the Republican Party."

End of Article in part and link

I guess this is the change to come...

  • 4 votes
#1.26 - Tue Apr 6, 2010 8:47 AM EDT
Tired_of_ExtremistsDeleted
CMlawyer

I predict there will be a big disconnect between democrats who agree with the Tea Party stated purpose of less government, and the democrats who support the extreme right wing candidates the Tea Party will put up for election. It's the same thing we've seen politically through the Bush years: the "conservatives" speak of less government, more political freedoms, and fiscal restraint which sounds great to any of us- even bleeding heart liberals- but increase government, enact the "Patriot Act", and blow the budget on wars and regressive tax rebates. Look beyond the TP label and see what the party's candidates really stand for. I think we will find that Indeps and Dems who support TP principles will NOT support TP candidates or finacially underwrite the TP.

  • 4 votes
#1.28 - Tue Apr 6, 2010 9:27 AM EDT
Rickeroo

If the Tea Party could be boiled down to a single theme, it's smaller government.

If you would, imagine this hypothetical poll, taken every few years, among all citizens:

Government is:

a. too small

b. too big

c. just right

What would the percentages be? Indeed, libertarianism is on the rise, and this is what the Tea Party is.

When the left takes on the Tea Party, they aren't fighting conservatives, they are fighting libertarians.

We weren't ready for a Ron Paul 2 years ago, but we are getting closer.

  • 4 votes
#1.29 - Tue Apr 6, 2010 9:58 AM EDT
Killfile

If you took that poll the overwhelming majority would say "B: Too Big."

Now, here's the weird thing. Given that, why doesn't government ever seem to shrink? The reason is that while Americans don't like big government, we always want to cut it where it doesn't benefit us personally.

We keep hearing about how wasteful the stimulus is... but few people can really point to millions of wasted stimulus dollars in their congressional district. Think about that for a moment.

We want small government; we want our Congressmen to cut wasteful spending... but not here.

We see this trend every day in Congressional approval ratings. Congress always has dismal approval ratings... but people like their Congressman.

There are crooks in Congress... but they're always from somewhere else.

  • 23 votes
#1.30 - Tue Apr 6, 2010 10:07 AM EDT
WmRAllen

I do not believe those in the Tea Party are all fringe people with questionable actions

I'm sure that there are some reasonable folks there-- wouldn't the better question be why those reasonable folks seem to be so accepting of the fringe ideologies and rhetoric? Why they don't take a stand against the racist signs, idiotic similes and metaphors, and generally-paranoid conspiracy theories of the loudest, most vitriolic elements that show up for their rallies?

Or is it simply a ill-considered tactic to garner the appearance of numeric strength and more media coverage for the movement, and they haven't considered the ways in which that coverage paints them as beyond the pale of American society?

  • 9 votes
#1.31 - Tue Apr 6, 2010 11:19 AM EDT
chimpshellDeleted
economics101

The fundamental problem with such a poll is the intential disinformation by Banks, media and governemtn about how government finance actually works. A 2nd year micro economics course will tell you that a rational persons economic opinions and decisions are directly related to the information which they posses about market conditions.

In the case of government finance, 99.9% of the poulation is so misinformaed about how money is spent, collected, paid as to be dangerous in such a debta - for example, the 30 year focus on social spending. We were told that cuts to social spending offset by tax cuts for investment, etc would actually make people better off. Now 30 years later where do we stand?

Well government spends more than ever, just not on social programs. The real income of the bottom quin tiles have dropped by about as much as the real incomes of the richest 5% have risen. While 1/4 kids is dealing with poverty and hunger, the rich get richer and richer. Therefore, teh experiment is a failure. The promised results of cuts to welfare, health care, education, etc. did not materialize, nor, in retrospect, was there ever any real danger of this happening. Over the 60 years of "neo-liberal" Reaganomics, the same thing allways happens:

1. income and wealth disparities - end of the middle class

2. Spending on police, defense and prisons rises exponentially

3. Privatization of public works provides bonanza for connected (ie corrupt) corporations who use public debt and financing to drive monopoly profits while nation debt rises

4. Unnecessary wars, authoritarian policies, police state. Reduction in education, R&D, etc ...

This explain why after 30 years of cutting social spending we spend far more today than we did 30 years ago, while gov't gets bigger, while we get less. Why politicians and theior corporate masters seem unable to stop acting as criminals, and respond by spying and imprisoning us - and declaring war on those who don't see the world "their way". The only real question is why any one would support this new "capitalism", other than, of course, those who have benefited from it!

I don't know what the tea party movement wants to achieve, but I suggest that they spend some time educating instead of protesting - because if you have no idea where you want to go, the odds of getting there are pretty slim.

  • 6 votes
#1.33 - Tue Apr 6, 2010 11:27 AM EDT
Rickeroo

Given that, why doesn't government ever seem to shrink? The reason is that while Americans don't like big government, we always want to cut it where it doesn't benefit us personally.

Killfile, excellent observation. Government has been getting bigger in part because people seem to like when their congressman brings home the bacon.

I'd rather my congressman work to reduce the federal welfare to my state, and reduce the money that flows from my state to the feds. Same with the town/state relationship.

Hopefully people are beginning to realize that federal, state and local funds all come from the same place: you. Instead of federal or state funding for public schools, the citizens of the town should pay directly for their town's school. A direct stake means more efficiency.

A town needs help with a road? Fix it themselves. Obviously, emergencies will need occasional state/federal help - but these days town budgets are all about "what are we getting from the feds?", then figuring out the rest.

  • 5 votes
#1.34 - Tue Apr 6, 2010 11:44 AM EDT
HappyToSeeYa

No matter who the polling organization is, it makes its conclusions based upon a supposed random sample that rarely includes as many as 5,000 people. Polling organizations select samples of people to be surveyed from regions or groups of people most likely to confirm pre-determined conclusions as well as phrase the survey questions in a manner validates the conclusions.

We live in a country of over 300 million. Why is such small sampling of so many people given so much credibility? Perhaps, the samples are smallish and considered accurate because the total number of eligible people who vote is so small.

  • 3 votes
#1.35 - Tue Apr 6, 2010 12:32 PM EDT
BrianAgness

Polling organizations select samples of people to be surveyed from regions or groups of people most likely to confirm pre-determined conclusions as well as phrase the survey questions in a manner validates the conclusions.

This happens in only 2 instances: 1. The organization has an obvious bias which is not common in most mainstream polling groups, OR 2. They are just poorly trained and cannot phrase questions well, which would not include mainstream polling groups.

We live in a country of over 300 million. Why is such small sampling of so many people given so much credibility? Perhaps, the samples are smallish and considered accurate because the total number of eligible people who vote is so small.

Or maybe because polling 10,000 people v. 5,000 people only increases the accuracy by 1% but takes twice the time and money.

  • 4 votes
#1.36 - Tue Apr 6, 2010 12:50 PM EDT
angela593

Does the tea bag movement mostly appeal to conservative, lower middle class, white senior citizens? read the link mostly women? worried widows?

  • 2 votes
#1.37 - Tue Apr 6, 2010 1:11 PM EDT
Plantsmantx

This is not a main-stream group.

You're right, it's not. I have no trouble believing that they reflect the country demographically, in terms of age, education, income, etc. However, that doesn't mean that they relfect the general population ideologically. Those are two different things altogether.

  • 3 votes
#1.38 - Tue Apr 6, 2010 2:26 PM EDT
MaryEllen Galloway

#1.8:When I saw your picture, I though that the vice squad should have a little talk with that chubby old granny pictured advertising that she "teabags." She could get propositioned (it is a sexual term). LOL.

And maybe she meant exactly what she "said"! :-) Who knows?

  • 7 votes
#1.39 - Tue Apr 6, 2010 7:58 PM EDT
rkymtnwoman

LOL there was an article on Newsvine yesterday titled something like, "Tea Party Members Cross All Demographics" and my thought was well, yes, so does mental illness, domestic violence, child abuse and incest.

  • 9 votes
#1.40 - Tue Apr 6, 2010 11:36 PM EDT
crispy2000

Far from mainstream?

How about this stat: Tea Party 48% Obama 44%

  • 6 votes
#1.41 - Wed Apr 7, 2010 3:18 PM EDT
Chris in VA

Killfile also used a NYT/CBS poll to paint the Tea Partiers as a fringe group. Here is a link to the actual results from that poll-- http://documents.nytimes.com/new-york-timescbs-news-poll-national-survey-of-tea-party-supporters?ref=politics You can even download the results as a PDF.

All of the Tea Party responses were marked with TP. All other stats provided were from prior national polls (CBS) to, as liberal pundits on MSNBC would call it, reflect the view of mainstream America.

So, on to question #1 (slight paraphrase), do you approve of the way Obama is doing his job?

  • Tea Party- 7% approve, 88% disapprove
  • However, all of the CBS polls conducted before that, shows that "mainstream America's" approval of Obama has dropped from 62% down to 50%. But liberals will tell you that America is absolutely thrilled with him as president even though his numbers are dropping.

Questions #2/3 (slight paraphrase) which they alternated for every respondent, what do you like/dislike about him?

  • 46% of America say that they just like him or they don't what they like about him. (Hmmm...I thought liberals and progressives were supposed to be educated, and they don't even know why they like him.)
  • 48% of Tea Partiers have the same opinion. (Maybe the Tea Party does reflect mainstream America?)
  • 46% of America say they just don't like him or don't know why.
  • 26% of Tea Partiers have the same opinion. (Maybe they are better educated? Who knew?)

Question #4 (slight paraphrase), is the country going in the right direction? Note: They provided CBS polling data going back to 1991. I am going to focus on the timeframe from 1/2009.

  • Tea Party- 6% right, 92% wrong
  • America- Peaked at 45% (May 2009) in the right direction and has gone down ever since. (Maybe the Tea Party is leading the way...oh, yeah, by educating the public.)

Question #5 (slight paraphrase)- what's the biggest problem facing the country?

  • Tea Party- 56% Economy, Jobs, and Deficit
  • America- 55% Jobs, Economy, and Deficit (Tea Partiers are such fringe extremists.)

If one looks closely at the data, the Tea Party seems to reflect the views of mainstream America. It is progressives (like Obama) who do not reflect the views of mainstream America.

  • 2 votes
#1.42 - Fri May 28, 2010 11:11 AM EDT
BrianAgness

It's funny how you can pick and choose certain polls to support your own opinions. Polls, while somewhat reliable are always up to interpretation. For example, a NYT interactive feature with recent poll data shows that when asked: "Do the views of the people involved in the Tea Party movement generally reflect the views of most Americans?" 84% of Tea Party supporters responded yes. Only 25% of all the respondents (including those that are tea party supporters) responded yes.

SO, whether you can prove that the Tea Party is mainstream with poll data or you do consider the Tea Party movement a fringe group, the fact is that when asked most people don't consider themselves to share their views with those in the Tea Party. And I think that is the most important number to consider, only 25% of Americans agree with the views of the Tea Party.

  • 1 vote
#1.43 - Fri May 28, 2010 6:54 PM EDT
Chris in VA

OK. So when I quote a poll, I am 'spinning' it to my point of view. 25%...where did you get that number from? A poll? And I supposed to take that number as the truth because you said so. Please.

Seems you contradicted yourself in your own response?

  • 2 votes
#1.44 - Fri May 28, 2010 7:48 PM EDT
Chris in VA

BTW Brian, I didn't choose the poll-Killfile did. I provided the link to his previous post.

But, let me guess--I am still 'spinning' the poll to my point of view, huh.

  • 2 votes
#1.45 - Fri May 28, 2010 8:01 PM EDT
Reply
njb

Good article, I think it was pretty obvious they were/are the fringe GOP even if the GOP wants to deny them.

It strikes me that they are mostly the age to have protested in the 60's too, but this time its like reverse civil rights--odd.

  • 23 votes
Reply#2 - Mon Apr 5, 2010 2:39 PM EDT
alise42

"It strikes me that they are mostly the age to have protested in the 60's too, but this time its like reverse civil rights--odd."

I am glad you brought this up, njb, as I have noticed something about that too.

In the late 60's-early 70's, I went to political protests and rallies, and had a solid progressive social and political conciousness. Trust me when I say that none of these t-partiers were ever involved. It is definitely reversed, but it's not really "odd", because they are just a re-do of the same old conservative blind-mind crap politics. A Lib oldster that I currently discuss politics with has remarked that these people "had to be t-partiers because they felt they missed something important back then, and now they feel left out".

There were no conservative protesters 'back in the day'. They (conservatives) were perfectly happy with the war, happy with lack of civil rights, happy with conformity, and miserable if you looked or acted or had a thought that was outside of their experience. The thing I remember most is that they were not interested in the well-being of anyone but themselves. I guess that's why I'm still a Lib, because they haven't changed one teeny bit. The T-Party is simply making that even more apparent.

  • 10 votes
#2.1 - Mon Apr 5, 2010 9:34 PM EDT
D. Craig C

Oh Crap. I'm an old white guy that grew up in the 60's.

Your oldster friend is right. These are all people that took 60 years to grow a pair. They've had no life (freedom) until now. Who wouldn't want to re-live the past and do everything you think you missed out on, or more importantly, correct any past mistakes.

I blame Viagra and the RV industry. Not to mention union pensions, corporate pensions, social security, VA benefits, medicare, medicaid, and those disciminatory senior discounts, and all those other socialist programs we can't afford to provide these people their Teabagger lifestyle.

This is a re-do of the "Hardhats" during the Nixon era with a heavy moral majority (mental minority) mentality. May they prosper and split the rightwing vote in future elections and orchestrate the coming implosion of the republican party.

  • 14 votes
#2.2 - Tue Apr 6, 2010 12:40 AM EDT
njb

Exactly D.--

I read an article the other day--don't ask me where now, about how many of these folks are living on government pensions or disability.

Cracks me up, if Jesus did show up they would call him a dark skinned socialist...

  • 11 votes
#2.3 - Tue Apr 6, 2010 8:47 AM EDT
jacq24

Interesting points D. Craig. I wonder how many of these cranky old white men collecting their pensions, SS, and Medicare were the angry young white men of the 60's who let their daddies buy them out of Vietnam via college and graduate school which they passed through stoned on their parents' money.

A large part of this entire anti-government movement could be the anti-establishment crowd of over four decades ago. Liberal then, they never outgrew blaming everyone else for their troubles (Daddy, society, the government). Taken in by the "never trust anyone over thirty" mentality, they couldn't figure out what to do once they turned thirty. Do you sell out for a house and two cars? Do you stay true to your "principles" and end up pushed aside by time and the next generation or two who think you are a joke? No matter which choice you made, I could see where you could easily end up attending these tea parties. Either in your expensive RV or driving your 15 year old Dodge pick up and packing.

  • 3 votes
#2.4 - Tue Apr 6, 2010 12:40 PM EDT
D. Craig C

"angry young white men of the 60's who let their daddies buy them out of Vietnam via college and graduate school which they passed through stoned on their parents' money."

You mean these angry white men?

George Bush

Dick Cheney

Billy O'Really

Rush Limbaugh

Oh, you mean limp-dick, chicken-hawks like these guys? I see your point.

  • 9 votes
#2.5 - Tue Apr 6, 2010 6:11 PM EDT
rkymtnwoman

"and they pawned a fighting phrase from tongues hot with blood

and drained their pens of bitter ink, mainly reaching for the bottle full of empty dreams

branded especially for the ones who had come with great expectations, to the perfumed halls of Allah" Don Henley

  • 5 votes
#2.6 - Tue Apr 6, 2010 11:39 PM EDT
Reply
Bubba-939441

The left wants you to think the tea party is angry racist white men. It ain't angry white men, but a large number of women.

http://www.politico.com/news/stories/0310/35094.html

  • 2 votes
#3 - Mon Apr 5, 2010 3:48 PM EDT
Killfile

I find this comment unintentionally hilarious.

  • 37 votes
#3.1 - Mon Apr 5, 2010 3:51 PM EDT
Bubba-939441

Killfile, that's two polls now that you find hilarious. Just maybe the polls are accurate and you're wrong about the party's make up. Maybe a little more research is required.

"Many of the tea party’s most influential grass-roots and national leaders are women, and a new poll released this week by Quinnipiac University suggests that women might make up a majority of the movement as well."

  • 4 votes
#3.2 - Mon Apr 5, 2010 3:56 PM EDT
Metal Guitarist

Women who are built like men, yes (Ann Coulter!).

"Oh.....I'm a lumberjack and I'm okay. I work all night and I sleep all day!"-Monty Python

  • 29 votes
#3.3 - Mon Apr 5, 2010 3:56 PM EDT
Killfile

Not the poll, Bubba, the comment.

The left wants you to think the tea party is angry racist white men. It ain't angry white men, but a large number of women.

Of the three descriptors of the Tea Party that you say the "Left" is pushing - "angry," "racist," "white," and "men [male]" - the only one you seem to have a problem with is "men."

"The left wants you to think the tea party is angry racist white men, but it isn't, it also has angry racist white women!"

Priceless!

  • 44 votes
#3.4 - Mon Apr 5, 2010 4:05 PM EDT
Soph0571

"The left wants you to think the tea party is angry racist white men, but it isn't, it also has angry racist white women!"

LOL:)

  • 24 votes
#3.5 - Mon Apr 5, 2010 4:10 PM EDT
Syntactic Tree

Of the three descriptors...

I counted four: "angry," "racist," "white" and "men."

But the point remains: "You can call us angry, racist, and white, but don't you dare call us sexist! The line, sir, is drawn there! Sexist we are not"

Laugh-worthy indeed.

  • 29 votes
#3.6 - Mon Apr 5, 2010 4:13 PM EDT
Killfile

That started out being about the ones he had a problem with. This, ladies and gents, is why you should read your comment carefully even after you edit it.

  • 23 votes
#3.7 - Mon Apr 5, 2010 4:17 PM EDT
Syntactic Tree

Such an egregious error, Killfile. Nothing less than a tarring and feathering for you, I'm afraid.

  • 10 votes
#3.8 - Mon Apr 5, 2010 4:22 PM EDT
Bubba-939441

Most of the angry women were Hillary supporters. They thought Hillary was right when she said Barak Obama was not qualified to be President of the United States.

  • 5 votes
#3.9 - Mon Apr 5, 2010 4:42 PM EDT
Soph0571

Most of the angry women were Hillary supporters

Do you have any evidence to back that up?

  • 23 votes
#3.10 - Mon Apr 5, 2010 4:43 PM EDT
Dr Fell

metal.

it was Palin who sang that one

  • 8 votes
#3.11 - Mon Apr 5, 2010 4:48 PM EDT
TR-421173

This is one time that I agree with Bubba the tea party ain't just angry racist old white men, it is a diverse group that also includes a large number of angry racist old white women too. ;) Thanks for that clarification Bubba, keep up the good work.

  • 25 votes
#3.12 - Mon Apr 5, 2010 5:39 PM EDT
Bubba-939441

Yes some racist men and women. I'd say less than 1%. Of course, the media paints a different picture. Don't believe everything you hear. Ya'll are gonna need more than the race card come November.

  • 2 votes
#3.13 - Mon Apr 5, 2010 8:05 PM EDT
DEBEKI

Well gee Bubba - there's that race card accusation - I got a whole deck - want to play.

  • 13 votes
#3.14 - Mon Apr 5, 2010 8:56 PM EDT
GA GUY

You'll have to get in line deary!!

It's Michael Steels' turn to use the RACE cards today...

...he's pretty good at it actually;...for someone who said he never would, he sure seems to know how well enough!

  • 15 votes
#3.15 - Mon Apr 5, 2010 8:58 PM EDT
Ripley8

Bubba-939441

Most of the angry women were Hillary supporters. They thought Hillary was right when she said Barak Obama was not qualified to be President of the United States.

I was and still am a Hillary supporter , I don't remember anyone saying he wasn't qualified.

I even got mad at her for dragging it out for so long.

all the Hillary supporters I know voted for Obama.

  • 13 votes
#3.16 - Mon Apr 5, 2010 9:22 PM EDT
logdump

Man you did not read what you wrote did you?

  • 4 votes
#3.17 - Mon Apr 5, 2010 11:49 PM EDT
SayWhat-1315936

Bubba

Are you working on your Blue Collar/Vine Tour routine? If so, you are almost there.

  • 8 votes
#3.18 - Tue Apr 6, 2010 1:51 AM EDT
Citizen Kane-473667

Don't worry Ripley8, the only one questioning that was her husband on GMA and we know he is a nobody. Who would listen to him?

  • 2 votes
#3.19 - Tue Apr 6, 2010 7:59 AM EDT
rkymtnwoman

Look the Tea Party headliners were Palin and Bachmann. For God's sake both are bat@!$%# crazy.

  • 6 votes
#3.20 - Tue Apr 6, 2010 11:40 PM EDT
Citizen Kane-473667

And your point is? The "National" convention had 600 attendees. That tells me two things; 1) Their idea of their "National" appeal is way over blown, hence, delusional, and 2) They need to seriously re-think trying to usurp a popular movement that is against everything they represent.....

Sorry, but the real grassroots Tea Parties want nothing to do with the Astro-Turf Palin, the Tea Party Express, or any other Republicans in sheep's clothing and you can tell her we said so.....

  • 2 votes
#3.21 - Wed Apr 7, 2010 1:34 AM EDT
Reply
RACHEL1-933952

What was that about only Dems/Libs calling them Teabaggers??

  • 13 votes
Reply#4 - Mon Apr 5, 2010 4:24 PM EDT
Dr Fell

teabagging for jesus. will that be the next excuse to be used by ole benedict?

  • 14 votes
#4.1 - Mon Apr 5, 2010 4:49 PM EDT
TR-421173

http://jimmywellington.com/wp-content/uploads/2009/10/teabag-300x225.jpg

  • 10 votes
#4.2 - Mon Apr 5, 2010 5:41 PM EDT
R. Donald Snyder

I call them teabaggers because that's what they started out calling themselves. Personally I don't know why some of them are offended, because it's a really fun thing to do.

;-)

  • 13 votes
#4.3 - Mon Apr 5, 2010 9:10 PM EDT
GA GUY

I know RDS! I hate it when someone tries to get rid of a perfectly good label just 'cause someone else enjoys it too...

];-}

  • 11 votes
#4.4 - Mon Apr 5, 2010 9:12 PM EDT
Ripley8

too true ... it was themselves that started using teabaggers. It was only when they understood what it meant that they have tried to run from the name.

they will always be teabaggers to me.

  • 14 votes
#4.5 - Mon Apr 5, 2010 9:24 PM EDT
NoobPatrol

They figured out what it meant. It's the same as when Jessie Jackson learned that Rainbow also had other connotations (he lead the Raindbow Coalition).

Also, it would be really interesting to see if the old lady really could teabag anyone.

  • 2 votes
#4.6 - Tue Apr 6, 2010 10:15 AM EDT
CMlawyer

The act of teabagging aside- how do you do it for Jesus? Is he on the ballot somewhere?

  • 5 votes
#4.7 - Tue Apr 6, 2010 10:38 AM EDT
MaryEllen Galloway

#4.5:they will always be teabaggers to me.

Me too, ripley! I have always called them teabaggers, and now that they want to change their name, well that's too bad. That's what you get for jumping the gun!

And I don't know or care anything about a sexual connotation. I have heard of them but that's about it.

  • 8 votes
#4.8 - Tue Apr 6, 2010 9:20 PM EDT
Reply
redsfan

Winston reports that about 17% of Americans consider themselves to be Tea Party members, a figure within the margin of error for the percentage of Americans who claim to have seen a UFO.

I'm pretty sure they are the exact same group of people. After all, any group of people who received a tax cut in the last year, but don't realize it, are probably too busy out looking for UFO's.

  • 19 votes
Reply#5 - Mon Apr 5, 2010 4:31 PM EDT
TR-421173

You can tell, they have the more stylish tin foil hats.

http://www.stopabductions.com/

  • 11 votes
#5.1 - Mon Apr 5, 2010 5:43 PM EDT
R. Donald Snyder

Here's a site for the more do it yourself type of teabaggers.

http://zapatopi.net/afdb/build.html

  • 6 votes
#5.2 - Mon Apr 5, 2010 9:43 PM EDT
alise42

OMG...they're SERIOUS!!! ROTHFLMFAO!!!!

  • 4 votes
#5.3 - Mon Apr 5, 2010 9:56 PM EDT
Ninbyo

80/20

there must be some significance to that.

  • 3 votes
#5.4 - Mon Apr 5, 2010 11:09 PM EDT
TR-421173

Yep RDS, the Zapatopi site has easier to make & cheaper ones, those will stop the government, but are not good enough to stop the aliens.

  • 8 votes
#5.5 - Tue Apr 6, 2010 12:15 AM EDT
SayWhat-1315936

Winston reports that about 17% of Americans consider themselves to be Tea Party members, a figure within the margin of error for the percentage of Americans who claim to have seen a UFO.

Although I do enjoy a good cup of tea, I've never considered myself a "Teabagger."

I have however seen a UFO so I probably upset your numbers a little.

A little helpful advice in case any of the rest of you don't see them before they see you- "Buckle up, it makes it harder for them to suck you out of your car". The UFO's, not the Teabaggers.

No pun intended, but run with it if you must.

  • 9 votes
#5.6 - Tue Apr 6, 2010 2:01 AM EDT
MaryEllen Galloway

#5:I'm pretty sure they are the exact same group of people. After all, any group of people who received a tax cut in the last year, but don't realize it, are probably too busy out looking for UFO's.

"The exact same group of people"! That's funny Red! Couldn't be two - no way, same thoughts!

  • 9 votes
#5.7 - Tue Apr 6, 2010 9:26 PM EDT
Reply
Theresa-382710

seems to me that trying to say the tea-baggers/party is mainstream America, is the same as saying all christains are westborrow (sp) baptists.

  • 18 votes
Reply#6 - Mon Apr 5, 2010 5:33 PM EDT
dcstone01

I'd say that is a very good analogy.

  • 9 votes
#6.1 - Tue Apr 6, 2010 12:02 AM EDT
WmRAllen

It is. Both groups, mainstream conservatives and mainstream Christians suffer for the actions of a fringe of radicals who identify with the greater group in theory, but stand for a complex of positions that do not represent in practice what the philosophies are about.

The remedy in both cases is the same-- if you're upset about the way society sees you, then you should be very vocal, both in the greater public conversation and with the leaders of the mainstream movement, and work to lessen or remove the influence of the unwanted groups. Let the Westborough Baptists know that they do not speak for you or any version of Christianity that you adhere to-- perhaps the counter-protests should not be left simply to the groups WBC attacks? Let the Tea Party folks know that you do not believe the Birthers, racists, the people with the ahistorical fascist/ socialist/ communist comparisons, those that are misinformed about whichever legislation happens to be the issue du jour, &c &c &c... and that you feel that including any group who happens to have an issue with the government, simply to give your movement/ rally the appearance of strength-in-numbers, is also giving your reasonable concerns an unfortunate negative coloration.

  • 5 votes
#6.2 - Tue Apr 6, 2010 12:12 PM EDT
Reply
jbdaad

Behind the headlines, the numbers tell their own story. Gallup reports that 28% of Americans consider themselves to be supporters of the Tea Party.

How many people is that?

26% oppose it

<

and the remainder

- a full 46% of the population - either doesn't know or doesn't care.

Seems this would be the Rep. ~And~ Demo. parties.

Unless of coarse that is the 26%...

Thanks.

  • 2 votes
Reply#7 - Mon Apr 5, 2010 5:59 PM EDT
jbdaad

Oops, Deduct these

American Independent Party - Wikipedia, the free encyclopedia

The American Independent Party is a political party that was established in 1967 by Bill Shearer and his wife Eileen. In 1968, the American Independent ...

Show map of 1561 N Beale Rd, Linda, CA 95901

2008 split - Presidential candidates - California gubernatorial ...
en.wikipedia.org/wiki/American_Independent_Party - Cached - Similar

Many political analysts have theorized that the Party, which has received very few votes in recent California elections, maintains its state ballot status because people join the Party mistakenly believing that they are registering as an "independent," also known as a "non-partisan" or "decline-to-state" voter.[2] One such voter was Jennifer Siebel, fiancée of San Francisco's liberal Democratic mayor Gavin Newsom; in 2008, Siebel attempted to change her party affiliation from Republican to Non-Partisan, but "checked the American Independent box thinking that was what independent voters were supposed to do," according to the San Francisco Chronicle.[3]

Rep. ~And~ Demo. getting smaller and smaller.

  • 5 votes
#7.1 - Mon Apr 5, 2010 6:21 PM EDT
Reply
Free Mason-1490678Deleted
iroquis

Dick Armey invented the baggers, does he regret it now? Can anyone tell me what has happened to the "Anti-abortion" street fighters they managed in the past? Have they all become baggers?

Personally, I rather enjoy their existence. they are forcing the Republicans to openly go to the right(where they are anyway), just don't like the public knowing it.

The sad thing is that they are consuming media time, time that should really be spent on issues.

  • 8 votes
Reply#9 - Mon Apr 5, 2010 7:01 PM EDT
Free Mason-1490678Deleted
NoobPatrol

You will still end up with a liberal in charge even if a republican is elected. No republican will cut spending. No republican would try to challenge Rowe V Wade. It would alienate their base. When you realize that alot of the republican-base is as welfare as the demo base, everything becomes alot cleared. Also, a fiscal conservative has little chance of being elected.

    #9.2 - Tue Apr 6, 2010 11:31 AM EDT
    WmRAllen

    Conservative roots

    Since when has radical social revolution been a "conservative" value? The Tea Parties seem to be just another iteration of the far-right counter-culture that arose in opposition to the New Left movements of the 1960s. There are many aspects that do not seem to me to be predicated on "conserving" the shape of the country as it has developed over time-- instead, the move for stringent ideological purity, the eliminationist rhetoric, the adoption of fringe groups outside the pale of the American mainstream, &c &c, all seem to be revolutionary actions, not conservative ones...

    • 1 vote
    #9.3 - Tue Apr 6, 2010 12:19 PM EDT
    Reply
    Free Mason-1490678Deleted
    Voltaire-1011715

    2000 --- Undecided voters - vote for Bush

    2008 --- "Independents" - maybe he was bad. But I'm not a member of this party! I just ascribe to their entire platform...

    Didn't really here much about 'independents' until 2008, before they were more like the green and libertarian parties, now their "mainstream". Seems more of an embarassed name change, although I was ten in 2000...

    • 4 votes
    Reply#11 - Mon Apr 5, 2010 7:09 PM EDT
    jmorris

    I consider most of the people in the Tea Party who claim to be Independent to be more "Embarrassed to be called Republican" then truly a Independent.

    • 10 votes
    #11.1 - Tue Apr 6, 2010 5:47 AM EDT
    NoobPatrol

    That is so true jmorris. Unfortunately, since all those republicans "jumped ship" to the libertarian and green parties, it's embarrassing for those of us who are libertarians. We don't want associated with these yahoos.

    • 1 vote
    #11.2 - Tue Apr 6, 2010 11:33 AM EDT
    jmorris

    I know and I feel sorry for the Libertarians and Green Party people who get splattered by the recent "independent" converts.

    Every time I here someone say, "I am an Independent" I feel like asking if to them "Independent" just means they punch every Republican name on the ballot when they vote as opposed to just punching straight ticket.

    • 4 votes
    #11.3 - Tue Apr 6, 2010 3:05 PM EDT
    Reply
    Zanyzazu

    About a week ago I was watching David Letterman and he had a woman on who said she started the tea baggers...A really dumpy sort of fat woman who was once a social worker ...she said she started it because she doubts Obamas Birth...and that she thinks he spent thousands or more to hide his true education........

    She was born in England ...and is a citizen now...says she is fighting for her country.....HUH???????

    A story about her might be very good...and informative...........and perhaps an ancient connection to real tea and a harbor....???????????? Kinda funny....

    Most of the people who protest and tea baggers say....we are leavng our children and grand children with debt....have them older than a lot of you folks.....well established....older people .......say grandchildren in their 30's ...perhaps even great grand children.....so what the hell is that all about??????????

    • 5 votes
    Reply#12 - Mon Apr 5, 2010 8:26 PM EDT
    LeonRedboneDeleted
    R. Donald Snyder

    Fascist? I thought he was a socialist? Or was that a communist? Numismatist? I sure wish teabaggers would settle on one!

    • 16 votes
    #12.2 - Mon Apr 5, 2010 9:56 PM EDT
    TheJonesGirl

    Obama's an Istist. That covers them all :p

    • 10 votes
    #12.3 - Mon Apr 5, 2010 10:09 PM EDT
    R. Donald Snyder

    Which proves that, unlike Bush, he can multi-task!

    ;-)

    • 12 votes
    #12.4 - Mon Apr 5, 2010 10:25 PM EDT
    logdump

    And right wingers know nothing about socialism communism of fascism.

    Hey redbone: It is better to be though of as a foll than to open your mouth and prove it.

    • 8 votes
    #12.5 - Mon Apr 5, 2010 11:57 PM EDT
    Joan-1682891

    Sean Hannity came up with that saying about Obama's spending is going to burden our children and grandchildren. He got the saying "generational theft" from John McCain. I don't know if you've ever watched Sean Hannity, but he whines and whines, he repeats the same thing over and over. So, the Tea Party people have heard Seanny, Sean, Sean repeat that over and over again. They take whatever tag line the talking heads on Fox give them. But, the Tea Party people are the ones who want 107 trillion in unfunded Social Security and free Medical care for the next 25-30 years, that will bankrupt their kids and grandkids. They don't care, they want their government pensions, be able to travel, if they can snag 3,000 a month in Soc. Sec. that's two trips a year to Europe for them. All Obama has to do is say you all paid X amount of dollars into these programs, you say you want no socialism, okay, you paid 2,000 into Medicare, we will give you five times what you paid in, 10,000 in medical care for you and your spouse, then go pay for it yourselves. They could not and would not do it. Same with SS. If they said, well, you paid 30,000 into it, you want 36,000 a year out of it for you and your spouse, okay, we will give you 4 years of it, that's a healthy return on your investment, then no more free money, help your kids and grandkids not be in huge debt over these programs. They would never do it. But, the money isn't there, that's what the whole Tea Party issue is about. The government would need 107 trillion dollars to fund those two programs because it is welfare, it pays out so much more than it takes in.

    • 4 votes
    #12.6 - Wed Apr 7, 2010 1:19 PM EDT
    Reply
    Zanyzazu

    I just felt a shudder run through my body....someone quoted ...Ronald Reagan....

    Ronald Mc Donald has more credibility and impact .......

    There is no limit to some peoples ability to endure shame.

    • 10 votes
    Reply#13 - Mon Apr 5, 2010 8:37 PM EDT
    MaryEllen Galloway

    #13:Ronald Mc Donald has more credibility and impact .......

    I agree with you - wholeheartedly!

    • 6 votes
    #13.1 - Tue Apr 6, 2010 10:35 PM EDT
    Reply
    Pacific Northwest Blogger

    For this article to have merit, it needs to start with the definition of what a tea party is, then separate out the nut-bugs (anarchists, racists, et.), the lobbies (Tea Party Express) and the political activists like Dick Armey, what's left would be a cross section of America who simply think taxation isn't being fairly represented.

    The liberal left should pay attention to the core message, not the nut-jobs. The message at heart is valid, that government spends too on credit, taxes to make up for the difference and impacts state budgets disproportionally.

    I'm not a tea party member, not a libertarian or even close to being a conservative but I can recognize a legitimate grievance with our government past and present, that it needs to control spending and where it spends... and let the taxpayer benefit directly as much as the very large corporations do on a daily basis.

    • 6 votes
    #14 - Mon Apr 5, 2010 8:44 PM EDT
    Ninbyo

    you mean the original message about fiscal responsibility that got lost fairly early on with all the Obama is a Muslim fascist commie Hitler wannabe from Kenya out to kill grandma and her little dog too talk? The one that Republicans have ignored even more so than Democrats in the last 30 years?

    • 13 votes
    #14.1 - Mon Apr 5, 2010 11:18 PM EDT
    logdump

    Ok if we are going to talk fiscal responsibility tell us who balanced the budget last? Clinton

    Who operated the Government for 8 years ending with a Surplus. Clinton

    Who is responsible for over 75% of the total debt this country owes? Bush l Bush ll and Saint Reagan

    So arent the teabaggers picketing the wrong party?

    • 11 votes
    #14.2 - Tue Apr 6, 2010 12:01 AM EDT
    Citizen Kane-473667

    LOL! Hell no we aren't we are picketing BOTH! Gotta keep it fair and all ya know!Ya can't continue to rest on Clinton's laurels any more than we can blame ANT president for the deficits we face. Only Congress can pass a budget. Only Congress writes and ultimately passes laws so the Patriot Act, the War deficit, TARP, and Stimulus; Congress gets the blame or the credit, when it is due.

    Welcome to reality folks. We don't blame the Democrats or the Republicans, most of you are very nice people actually. We blame the elected leaders of this country for selling out to corporate interest over the interest of the common citizens. Remember that deadlock on healthcare reform? When was it broken? When the public option was pulled out of it. Now why is that? Could it be that the insurance industry withdrew its objection because they knew they had 100's of millions of mandated new customers with no where to turn.

    Like I said, it is Washington we are mad at and I think everyone can think of a good reason to be pissed if they really really try....

    • 4 votes
    #14.3 - Tue Apr 6, 2010 12:27 AM EDT
    Matthew-480753

    Then why weren't you out there picketing Bush??? Many say they were, but no one can post a story or pics of a major tea party protest of W's spending sprees...

    • 10 votes
    #14.4 - Tue Apr 6, 2010 12:55 AM EDT
    jmorris

    Then why aren't you out there picketing Bohner and Cantor and the rest of the Republican House & Senate *today*, since they had more to do with getting America in the financial mess we are in today then Obama?

    You can't go around saying you blame both sides when your rhetoric calls only for voting out Democrats. I have yet to see a single Tea Party sign with a negative comment about a Republican (except for maybe McCain).

    • 13 votes
    #14.5 - Tue Apr 6, 2010 5:53 AM EDT
    Citizen Kane-473667

    You can't go around saying you blame both sides when your rhetoric calls only for voting out Democrats.

    You do realize that I launched a drive in May of last year and a group in June to vote out ALL incumbent politicians in 2010 right? Did I say vote Republican or Democrat, whichever you want as long as it isn't the incumbent? YES I did say that so please, save your charges of Partisanship for those who might actually be guilty of it.

    So Yes, I can say I have been on record for almost a year now calling for the removal of incumbents on both sides of the aisle regardless of party affiliation!

    I can also prove that in a poll run here on the Vine when asked what Obama should focus on in his first 100 days in office I responded with "end corruption and waste" which it should be fairly obvious that it certainly did not begin with him so I must have been protesting former elected leaders actions, INCLUDING BUSH!

    But hey, don't let a few things like that get in the way of saying I never did protest spending before. Oh and BTW Mark, the Tea Party did not exist really before Feb. '09, but many supporters of it were actively protesting government spending way before then. One was established in 2004. Imagine that-dead smack in the middle of Bush's length of service as President......

    • 4 votes
    #14.6 - Tue Apr 6, 2010 9:24 AM EDT
    Killfile

    You do realize that I launched a drive in May of last year and a group in June to vote out ALL incumbent politicians in 2010 right?

    Pffft.  Meaningless. 

    We live in a two party system.  We can complain about that as much as we like but the structural realities imposed by the Constitution and its amendments create a national political system with room for only two parties at a time.

    Democrats are in power right now; therefore, voting out all the incumbents means putting Republicans in power. 

    It's not rocket science, Kane. 

    • 13 votes
    #14.7 - Tue Apr 6, 2010 9:33 AM EDT
    jmorris

    CitizenKane,

    Good for you, now how about the rest of the Tea Party people . . .

    How about your Newsvine group come up with a set of bullet points, a "Tea Party Purity Test" and grade ALL Congressmen and Senators on their actual votes not just their party affiliation. Even better why don't you look at their records *before* TARP and the Stimulus Bill (pre-Obama). Who in the Congress and Senate voted for corporate welfare and expanding government, who voted for fiscally irresponsible programs and tax bills.

    Just a knee-jerk reaction of "vote all the bums out" isn't going to be the best solution if you just vote in a different set of bums. Vote people out of office as a consequence of their *actions* and others will be hesitant to act the same way. You don't train a dog by shooting it and getting a new one.

    • 6 votes
    #14.8 - Tue Apr 6, 2010 11:17 AM EDT
    Citizen Kane-473667

    I did just as you suggested their when I researched who accepted money from whom for the campaigns and as a consequence I found that even those I thought were pure were tainted by megacorps and PACS contributions. Some were way less and some were way more, but all had been touched which led to the V.O.I.C.E. in America group being launched. Granted, I haven't revisited the info in a year, but somehow I feel it has gotten worse, not better. It will continue to do so until we pass campaign finance reform, but that will never happen as long as any of the Good ol' Boys are still around.

    • 2 votes
    #14.9 - Tue Apr 6, 2010 11:30 AM EDT
    jbdaad

    We live in a two party system.

    Exactly the culprits that got us into this mess..!

    That is why the Tea Party is gaining support.

    Don`t take Einstein to figure out who was/is/and

    has been at the rudder on the leaking boat.

    • 4 votes
    #14.10 - Tue Apr 6, 2010 11:45 AM EDT
    Pacific Northwest Blogger

    Speaking solely for myself, I consider "incumbents" a code word for anyone from the old guard of the cold war era that simply isn't in touch with today's America. I want THEM out of office because they haven't come into the present day, they still think "National Security" should lead debates, which is code word for spend more on the military industrial complex because they, the members of congress can control where the money flows into their districts. It comes down to control of our tax dollars for projects and programs that don't benefit the nation as a whole, but benefit their corporate/military lobbyist donors. (You can replace military industrial complex in my above statement to read, insurance company, bank, petroleum industry, et.) We need to clean house and vote in members of government that have the balls to put regulation back, create lobbying reform, campaign finance reform and make government work for the people, not just for those in the government already in power.

    • 6 votes
    #14.11 - Tue Apr 6, 2010 12:52 PM EDT
    Killfile

    Exactly the culprits that got us into this mess..!

    That is why the Tea Party is gaining support.

    If that's why the Tea Party is gaining support, teabaggers are more ignorant than I thought. Even assuming the TEA Party manages to rise to major party status all that will happen is that the party closest to the Tea Party's ideology will cease to exist and incorporate itself into the Tea Party.

    And then we're back to a two party system.

    The United States has had many parties since the day it was founded (or just about) yet there isn't a single meaningful stretch of time wherein three major parties managed to co-exist for much longer than a single election cycle.

    Speaking solely for myself, I consider "incumbents" a code word for anyone from the old guard of the cold war era that simply isn't in touch with today's America. I want THEM out of office

    Great and wonderful but my advice is this: if you want to create serious change in the system like that, don't worry about the general elections; worry about the primaries.

    So long as the old guard dominates in the primaries they will dominate in the general no matter who you vote for (because they dominate in both parties). Voting the incumbents out doesn't do anything to change the system you have a problem with unless you put up primary challengers. Absent those, the old guard will continue to perpetuate their power regardless of your activism.

    • 8 votes
    #14.12 - Tue Apr 6, 2010 1:57 PM EDT
    Pacific Northwest Blogger

    There in lies the problem. In my state the partys don't put forward the most qualified or capable to run against incumbents. They simply kowtow to the incumbent. It's my view they we need to campaign for independents (not tea partiers, libertarians, et) and break up the two party system which is in itself corrupt and incapable of change. I'll take a Bernie Sanders(I) over my own Patty Murray(D) or Dave Reichart(R) any day...

    • 7 votes
    #14.13 - Tue Apr 6, 2010 2:26 PM EDT
    jbdaad

    If that's why the Tea Party is gaining support, teabaggers are more ignorant than I thought.
    Great and wonderful but my advice is this: if you want to create serious change in the system like that, don't worry about the general elections; worry about the primaries.

    APC ACTION ALERT
    From American Policy Center

    Sam Rohrer is the TEA Party Candidate for PA Governor

    State Representative Sam Rohrer is running for governor of Pennsylvania. It is vital that all freedom loving Americans across the nation know that Sam is THE TEA party candidate.

    Sam is running against Tom Corbett, the current Attorney General of Pennsylvania. Corbett is a typical Republican insider trying to appeal to the tea party freedom movement. Of course Corbett’s campaign is doing everything possible to paint himself as the conservative candidate in this race – he even takes Sam’s issues as his own. But during debates between the two it is becoming obvious that Corbett has little understanding of the issues and passions of the freedom movement.

    Today, I personally and publicly endorse Sam Rohrer. He has been on the American Policy Center Board of Advisors for 10 years. He has been a close friend and we have fought side by side on many issues to preserve liberty to the American people.

    • Sam has been especially vocal in the fight to stop the national ID card and stands as one of the nation’s major spokesmen in the battle to expose and stop the growing government surveillance society.
    • He is leading the effort in Pennsylvania to enact legislation claiming state sovereignty under the Tenth Amendment to the U.S. Constitution over certain powers, which served notice to the Federal Government to cease and desist unconstitutional mandates.
    • He truly believes in and advocates limited government and individual liberty.
    • He has passion for the Constitution and our nation’s unique ideals of liberty.

    This alert is both an endorsement of Sam and a call to action. The freedom movement has a chance to elect one of its own as governor of Pennsylvania. For that to become reality two things need to happen right now.

    Action to Take:

    First: For freedom fighters who do not live in Pennsylvania – now is the time to contact ANY friends, political contacts, anyone you know in Pennsylvania. Contact them and urge them to get behind Sam's gubernatorial efforts!

    Secondly: The Primary for the governor's race in Pennsylvania is on May 18th. The Rohrer campaign needs monetary support. As usual, Corbett’s campaign has a full war chest filled by the usual lobbyists and big government advocates. Sam is counting on us to step out and donate. Please donate and tell your friends to do the same – no matter where you live!

    Remember, the Primary is May 18th. It is fairly certain that the winner of the Republican primary will win the governor’s race in November. So now is the time to step up and elect one of our own.

    For more information on Sam and the issues go to: http://www.samrohrer.org/

    Please send this alert to your lists of freedom fighters across the nation and help spread the word for Sam Rohrer.

    • 3 votes
    #14.14 - Thu Apr 8, 2010 7:57 AM EDT
    Citizen Kane-473667

    Aye there is the rub. In order to have a chance of running a campaign he must trade on the Republican name as well as the Tea Party support. I would like to see him run on the "No Party" ticket and steal thunder from both sides. If he did this, I would donate to his campaign and I live a long way from PA....

    • 3 votes
    #14.15 - Thu Apr 8, 2010 8:52 AM EDT
    dcstone01

    I agree...To me if the Tea Party is truly going to be a viable third party option they should have their own 'candidates' that use the name 'Tea Party'...

    Not the TP actively backing/endorsing 'republican's' that are running for office...The TP should be fielding their own candidates...otherwise to me they are just another association of people 'lobbying' for republicans....

    Here in CA we have a few parties (Green, Libertarians, etc...) besides 'Dem or Rep' and they back their own candidates without ever endorsing the 'two parties'...These other parties, I do take seriously because they support their own candidates...

    Until the TP can actively put out their own candidates, not just 'former Republicans' either, I will not take them seriously as another viable separate party, I look at them as just an extension of the GOP...it's just that simple in my mind.

    • 6 votes
    #14.16 - Thu Apr 8, 2010 12:15 PM EDT
    Citizen Kane-473667

    I can see where the confusion comes in since we are not a recognized political party with actual membership lists or actual candidates, but I think you will find that we will back those who promise the reforms we seek regardless of the little letter after the name....

    Unfortunately for the Democratic candidates, they continue to ignore that and hope that the splitting of votes between Republican candidates will undermine the cause and it probably will in the primaries. But come the general election with only the choice between the (R) and the (D) it will probably go to the non-incumbent; unless there is an (I) in there with Tea Party ties that is...

    • 3 votes
    #14.17 - Thu Apr 8, 2010 1:44 PM EDT
    dcstone01

    I understand what you are saying and have read that before, but, to me, that just isn't good enough...

    They need to prove to me that they are really and truly after new 'people' by supporting new people.

    Not 'retreads' of any party (R,D, or I) ...and not some newcomer from any party.

    They need to stand on & with their own candidates if they want to succeed in my eyes...

    Only, then I will take them seriously as an viable alternate party...

    • 6 votes
    #14.18 - Thu Apr 8, 2010 1:58 PM EDT
    Citizen Kane-473667

    Well in a way, I can't blame you and it may well be coming in the future but we are still too disorganized. Now come 2012, with the leaps in membership we are experiencing and the new movement towards actually organizing our efforts, you just may see the (T) after some names and they won't be "re-treads" either....

    • 3 votes
    #14.19 - Thu Apr 8, 2010 2:04 PM EDT
    jbdaad

    re ,#14.14

    Important Note from Tom DeWeese: After sending the below Sledgehammer yesterday, I received several emails concerning Sam Rohrer's political party status. Please understand, Sam is running as a Republican candidate for PA Governor. I was simply stating that he is the perfect candidate of choice for the TEA Party, freedom movement supporters not that he is a 3rd party candidate under a nonexistent "TEA party." Again, Sam Rohrer is a Republican candidate for PA Governor and he needs all the support of the freedom movement. --- Tom DeWeese

      #14.20 - Thu Apr 8, 2010 9:46 PM EDT
      Reply
      iroquis

      PNB,

      The amount of frustration with government and pols on both sides is testament to the need for public funding of campaigns. our Politicians have sold their souls to corporate America.

      • 8 votes
      Reply#15 - Mon Apr 5, 2010 9:19 PM EDT
      logdump

      Thats what I am arguing all the time. Its not the politicians its the system. I bet half the Republicans would be closer to the center if they did not owe their soul to big business and the rich. As long as they keep us hating each other and fighting they walk away with all the loot laughing as the do.

      • 8 votes
      #15.1 - Tue Apr 6, 2010 12:04 AM EDT
      Citizen Kane-473667

      A friggin men dammit!

      • 6 votes
      #15.2 - Tue Apr 6, 2010 12:28 AM EDT
      Reply
      LeonRedboneDeleted
      LeonRedboneDeleted
      Better Careful

      Let's not quibble over parsed statistics. We're better off understanding the Tea Party by what they say and how they say it, as well as looking at what they won't do or say. The resistance to debate and policy matters is telling. I don't see much willingness to talk about issues and policies, rather a choice to play things for their sentimental and emotional value, often defining reality as the set of conditions which must be associated with the desired emotion or sentiment.

      The sort of policy debate in which all sides of an issue and policy are examined and weighed from different (respectful) political points of view will not happen in this environment. The right-wing has determined that it's their way or the hi-way, even if it's them on the road out of town. The rest of us have just about given up trying to have a dialogue, no less a government of good intentions.

      We cannot do what's best for America if our policies and programs are the product of self-indulgence. This is my point. When a person or group plays to their emotions and to sentimental value, that is self-indulgent. When a person or a group has determined that their interests alone matter, even at the expense of others, that is self-indulgent. When a person or a group does both, with vehemence and vitriol, that's superbly self-indulgent. Our nation is best not led by these sorts of people.

      We can neither trust them nor rely on them to do other than what pleases them and is best for them as individuals, or members of their particular group. This does not make for good government or good policies.

      • 8 votes
      Reply#18 - Mon Apr 5, 2010 9:38 PM EDT
      Ninbyo

      The tea party isn't about substantive debate, it's about tossing pseudo-patriotic slogans around and yelling waving the flag around in pompous self-righteous fury. Slogans aren't sound debate, and it would be foolish to base policy on said slogans.

      The whole spiel from Palin and her followers touting they represent a so-called "real" America, as if the rest of us somehow aren't Americans too. I won't forget that one.

      • 9 votes
      #18.1 - Mon Apr 5, 2010 11:24 PM EDT
      Citizen Kane-473667

      Nor should you. Palin and her faux Tea Party convention was the biggest joke since Bush said we won the war on terror. The disconnect between politicians and Main Street is so wide, even her Bridge to Nowhere can't bridge the gap. They are disgusting leeches dangling from corporate teats getting larger with each term they spend in office...

      • 8 votes
      #18.2 - Tue Apr 6, 2010 12:31 AM EDT
      Reply
      Matt Rock

      Excellent piece! And if you wouldn't be opposed to it, I'd love to use that picture in a future article of my own... it's one of the funnier ones I've seen, right up there with the "Youth in Asia" sign.

      I think the fact that the President's approval rating is right on par with Presidents' Clinton and Reagan should be more telling than it is. He's holding within the parameters of average amongst two-term Presidents. Teabaggers often make wild assertions that President Obama is going to lose the election in 2012, but they have no facts to back that claim up. I'll agree that the President's numbers aren't quite as soft as some of us would like them to be, but that's to be expected after eight years of Bush and the level of polarization on the campaign trail. The President has given quite a bit for Mr. Axelrod and Mr. Plouffe to form their incumbency campaign with. He accomplished more in his first eight months than Bush did in his whole eight years, things that moderates can appreciate. I'm not saying the next election is in the bag or anything, but to say his chances aren't looking good is a bit disingenuous I think.

      • 15 votes
      Reply#19 - Mon Apr 5, 2010 9:43 PM EDT
      LeonRedboneDeleted
      Killfile

      The photo isn't mine so I certainly can't object. I haven't been able to source it despite my (and TineEye.com's) best efforts.

      • 13 votes
      #19.2 - Mon Apr 5, 2010 10:12 PM EDT
      Matt Rock

      Thanks Killfile, if you ever do find out let me know, I might just use it anyway if the need presents itself (and if someone gets upset I can always swap it for something else).

      The fascist Obama has done more damage to America than the idiot Carter and BillyBob Clinton combined. He is living proof that affirmative action is a horrible mistake.

      You know Leonredbone, a part of me really wants to open up your insane ideology like a can of worms and shut you down through intelligent debate. But another part of me realizes it would be a complete and total waste of time. But really, do you mind telling me what Bush did that was positive/ good before the end of his second term?

      • 11 votes
      #19.3 - Mon Apr 5, 2010 10:20 PM EDT
      Drizzey

      The photo isn't mine so I certainly can't object. I haven't been able to source it despite my (and TineEye.com's) best efforts.

      You should try photoshop as a source. It should be flagged as inaccurate if you can't prove it's real.

        #19.4 - Wed Apr 7, 2010 3:28 PM EDT
        Killfile

        Not really, it's not as if the photo is being used to support the story. It's illustrative and amusing, nothing more.

        • 5 votes
        #19.5 - Wed Apr 7, 2010 5:09 PM EDT
        Reply
        Citizen Kane-473667

        The counter to the spin: The Newsvine Tea Party. Thank you for presenting another opportunity to refute the hate-mongering of the Far Left and its accusations Killfile. Please, keep up the good work.

        Everyone else:

        We have all heard the accusations leveled at the Tea Party and some are true; to a degree. From what the polls killfile quotes here, there are probably as many Racist in the Democratic and Republican parties as their are in the Tea Party. The difference is, the Tea Party doesn't have any Racist in elected office like the Democrats and Republicans do. What we have are a bunch of mis-guided individuals using large public gatherings to spew their hate-mongering BS. I hereby offer a challenge to one and all leveling charges of Racism against the Tea Party in general; count the signs. Count the number of signs that are racist. Crunch the numbers to get the ratio. Now tell me which ones should have a better chance of being on the Evening news. Now tell me, which ones actually were shown?

        Controversy and hate-mongering sells people; and you have just donated to Killfile's wallet.

        • 4 votes
        Reply#20 - Mon Apr 5, 2010 10:20 PM EDT
        Matthew-480753

        Why should any racist signs be tolerated if this is a bona fide political movement? Unless it is a movement that supports a racist agenda. If the answer (all too common) is, "we have no true leader / affiliation so we are just a loose affiliation of concerned americans", than they are of no significant value until they get their acts together and establish some form of platform.

        • 10 votes
        #20.1 - Tue Apr 6, 2010 1:02 AM EDT
        Citizen Kane-473667

        Matthew,

        I had to vote your comment up because it pointed out the very flaws inherent in our grassroot Tea Party Movement. To wit:

        Why should any racist signs be tolerated if this is a bona fide political movement?

        Remember the Tea Party supports the Constitution and the Bill of Rights for ALL American citizens. These gatherings are held in public places and there is that pesky First Amendment thing still hanging on by a thread....

        If the answer (all too common) is, "we have no true leader / affiliation so we are just a loose affiliation of concerned americans",

        That is exactly what we ARE trying to do now and I am trying to help the Tea Party get its act together before the Astro-Turf Palin crowd takes over..

        they are of no significant value

        As this article above points out, they represent 26% of the American voting block and that is a very big reason to place value upon them. This is why the Republicans are trying to co-opt them and the Democrats are trying to minimize them. Two polar opposite reactions to a very real threat to both incumbent parties.

        until they get their acts together and establish some form of platform.

        Very good observation and it is way past the time we did just that.....

        • 2 votes
        #20.2 - Tue Apr 6, 2010 9:38 AM EDT
        Killfile

        Remember the Tea Party supports the Constitution and the Bill of Rights for ALL American citizens. These gatherings are held in public places and there is that pesky First Amendment thing still hanging on by a thread....

        Bull@!$%#.

        On April 9th I'll be covering a Westboro Baptist Church protest in Blacksburg, VA. Thousands of people are expected to turn out to express their disapproval of the WBC message "God Hates Fags."

        You can say "that's not ok, I don't approve of that" without taking away someone's right to say it.

        If your group allows someone to march with them carrying a sign that promotes racism then your group is complicit in it. Close ranks, chant "he's not with us," do anything to show your disapproval but if you accept it silently it's on your heads too.

        • 13 votes
        #20.3 - Tue Apr 6, 2010 10:11 AM EDT
        redsfan

        If your group allows someone to march with them carrying a sign that promotes racism then your group is complicit in it. Close ranks, chant "he's not with us," do anything to show your disapproval but if you accept it silently it's on your heads too.

        Agreed! I would have so much more respect for the tea party crowd if they would do stuff like you mention. I absolutely support their right to march and express their concerns about government, taxes, deficit, etc....but when they not only allow, but cheer the racist and violent rhetoric among them, that tells me they are not there out of concern for government policy, they are there to express their fear and anger at the "other" in our society...and that's not something I can support.

        • 9 votes
        #20.4 - Tue Apr 6, 2010 10:21 AM EDT
        Reply
        Frank BlackDeleted
        eric-1166057

        Anyone who has observed the t-gaggers knows they are not mainstream. Mainstream Americans are caring, civil people who have a good command of the English language. Not so the t-gaggers.

        • 11 votes
        Reply#22 - Tue Apr 6, 2010 12:26 AM EDT
        Citizen Kane-473667

        Really? I think my command of the English language is pretty decent actually. Now if you have a serious question or concern, please feel free to bring it forth so I can attempt to answer it. Of course if I didn't care about cutting the corporate puppet strings that make Congress dance, I wouldn't have joined the Tea Party to try to do what I can to cut them. If I didn't care about the unemployed, I wouldn't be writing my Congressman to push the extensions. If I didn't care about the sick, suffering, and dieing, I wouldn't be pushing for Universal Care. If I didn't care, I wouldn't be here on the Vine trying to get more Democrats to lend their voice to the discussion on how to solve the problems we all agree need to be addressed.

        • 5 votes
        #22.1 - Tue Apr 6, 2010 12:39 AM EDT
        fireryone

        I have a serious question Citizen. Why do the tea party people rail against more taxes and say the deficit is too big? How do you expect to cut the deficit without cutting spending and increasing taxes. I mean if you don't want to leave the debt to our children...shouldn't we be willing to pay more taxes?

        • 9 votes
        #22.2 - Tue Apr 6, 2010 2:32 AM EDT
        Citizen Kane-473667

        We believe that Government is full of bloat. Inefficient, duplication of services by multiple departments and agencies, needless Pork spending to buy votes, and too full of tax loopholes allowing those who should be paying the maximum to get by with a minimal tax burden. Most of us endorse the Fair Tax Plan which would eliminate the loopholes and tax breaks that have placed such a heavy burden upon the average American taxpayer. If we were to adopt it we could indeed pay down that deficit without paying any more in taxes than we do now, if not less.

        We believe that the same services could be offered at a lower cost just by better manipulation of data alone. How many times have you had to put your social security number on a government application for a service? Whether we use retinal scans, thumb prints or any other form of identification which cannot be lost or stolen to combine all of your information into a single protected file where that information is readily available to the government when you need its help, we will eliminate the need for so many data entry clerks it boggles the mind. And that is just one way to pare down the high cost of government. Imagine for a second you lost your job because of a layoff. You go home with your final paycheck in your pocket and without doing a thing, next week you receive your unemployment check, food stamps for the week, and a list of interview appointments of people hiring in your field in your area. It isn't impossible to do. The government has that information already the minute your former employer turns in their paperwork. The Department of Labor also has the list of those who have registered with them as employers seeking workers. The disconnect is in the software. Fix the disconnect and you save the time and manpower currently required to initiate and process claims both within the DoL and the food stamp office.

        • 2 votes
        #22.3 - Tue Apr 6, 2010 10:03 AM EDT
        fireryone

        Thank you for your response Citizen.

        Whether we use retinal scans, thumb prints or any other form of identification which cannot be lost or stolen to combine all of your information into a single protected file where that information is readily available to the government when you need its help, we will eliminate the need for so many data entry clerks it boggles the mind.

        This wouldn't fly and you know it. Privacy concerns have many people upset with the part of the health care reform bill that speaks to combining all of your medical data into an electronic file. This would help to prevent some medical mistakes. Your medical history would be available to all health care workers who see you. It would be nice to not have to tell every doc I see that I'm allergic to penicillin.

        Also Food stamps, Medicaid and Unemployment are handled by State Agencies. Food stamps and Medicaid do share information. In my state they are applied for on the same form. You check off which services you are applying for. DOL information is shared with H&W to prevent fraud and also to assist child support enforcement in collecting from a non-custodial parent.

        In my state, when you apply for any of these services you apply using a kiosk, so your information is already "data entered". Benefits (other than unemployment) are paid out via Electronic Benefits Debit card.

        My point is that some states have taken steps to become more efficient in delivering services. I don't even have to go to the DMV anymore to renew my vehicle registration, I do it all online.

        • 2 votes
        #22.4 - Tue Apr 6, 2010 10:58 AM EDT
        TheSkeptic-1418965Deleted
        fireryone

        Skeptic, I actually agree with some of what you said. But when it comes to this "That's the last thing liberals and democrats have any interest in hearing." that does not further the conversation in my view. If those on the right and on the left could debate issues and ideas for fixing things, and not ideology, we might get somewhere. I'm sick of the finger pointing arent you?

        • 5 votes
        #22.6 - Tue Apr 6, 2010 3:42 PM EDT
        Reply
        Matthew-480753

        OK Kane. I'll bite. All I've heard from Tparty nation is a constant drone of fiscal responsibility; cut taxes and don't spend on healthcare for all americans. Whenever I ask what should be cut from the budget in order to reduce the deficit, I get nothing. When I suggest the easiest way to reduce the deficit is to slash military spending, I get fear mongering OR an ironic twist on socialism where they say that those defense dollars support alot of US corporate profits... really, can you imagine the total lack of insight to say such a thing while suggesting the president is a socialist? So, what is the Tparty suggestion for reducing the deficit while 'keeping your government hands off of my medicare', cutting taxes, and rebuilding americas failing infrastructure?

        • 11 votes
        Reply#23 - Tue Apr 6, 2010 1:06 AM EDT
        Perry O

        Don't touch their farm subsidies either.

        Tea Party Candidates: Principled Idealists or On the Government Dole?

        But for one important detail, Stephen Fincher could be a perfect "tea party" candidate: a gospel-singing cotton farmer from this tiny hamlet in western Tennessee, seeking to right the listing ship of Washington with a commitment to lower taxes and smaller government.

        The detail? Fincher accepts roughly $200,000 in farm subsidies each year.

        • 8 votes
        #23.1 - Tue Apr 6, 2010 9:36 AM EDT
        Citizen Kane-473667

        Matthew,

        The cutting of military spending has been brought up and I personally support it. The waste in the military is a very big problem for me. I shop at the military surplus stores all the time for my hunting gear and I have often wondered how brand new, never used items could be "surplus". It is a travesty of wasted money and should be put to a halt. I had a business going which required me to sign up for auctions of government surplus and salvage materials and you wouldn't believe the perfectly good, usable, materials that were being auctioned off for sale. From automobiles to working Xerox copiers and it was from all departments and agencies. Meanwhile our local schools have a shortage of computers and paper. Makes you think WTF? Once again this goes back to waste and inefficient government.

        As far as our infrastructure goes, the Interstate Highway System is the only one I am aware of that actually qualifies for this at the present time but I could be wrong. Personally I feel that the States should have a mandated quality level to maintain the roads and bridges of the system and it should be fully funded by the US government. All other infrastructure is state and local obligations and if they need more money to revamp them, those benefiting from their use should pay for it (user tax, toll roads, etc.).

        Perry O,

        I checked out your link and that guy sounds like another Astro-Turfer to me. I would favor ending farm subsidies where we pay people NOT to plant a crop. Now don't get me wrong, we all are recipients of Government "dole", but most of us receive less than what we pay in overall (public education, fire protection, police, food stamps, Unemployment, etc.) but I seriously doubt that guys wife had paid in 2.5 million in taxes to cover what she received in subsidies.

        THAT is a prime of example of what is so wrong about this "system".....

        • 4 votes
        #23.2 - Tue Apr 6, 2010 10:42 AM EDT
        Olyman

        Not to mention those that are currently in office and have the chance to make some common sense changes, choose not to for fear of putting an abrupt end to their political careers. Take the career out of politics and make it a serving of the people as it was originally intended to be. Stop paying them 6 figure wages, there's no reason they should become rich while serving the people. This does nothing but fuel the disconnect the people in Washington have with the average day joe. Also, no excemptions from the laws and bills passed on behalf of the people. If they're good enough for us, they should most certainly be good enough for them. It doesn't take a brain surgeon to see that many in Washington are more concerned with prolonging their careers than solving the peoples problems. So how do you expect these problems to be solved when money speaks louder than common sense?

        Seems to me that lifers and incumbents who've already served two terms need to be moved out. It's time for a new voice and fresh set of eyes in Washington. Right now, those new voices are more likely to be center/center right than they are leftist.

        • 2 votes
        #23.3 - Tue Apr 6, 2010 12:55 PM EDT
        Reply
        Roger-279114

        The percentage of people who say that they support the Tea Party is roughly the same as the percentage of people who once said that they supported Ross Perot. Perot pulled his support mostly from Conservatives and Independents, with a handful of Dems. But Perot's support kept dwindling until he had no choice but to step out of the limelight. There are always people who will join any "movement" that complains about the government, but the movement loses supporters once they try to elucidate their own ideas for changing things.

        Complaining is the easy part. Coming up with something better is the hard part. The Tea Party "movement" will stay together as long as it is limited to just marching around with little signs that state what they are against. I guess it makes them feel like they are a part of something without ever having to commit to any particular agenda. But try to come up with an agenda to actually fix anything and they will quickly splinter apart and be scattered to the winds.

        • 8 votes
        Reply#24 - Tue Apr 6, 2010 2:03 AM EDT
        Zanyzazu

        I am reading all of these comments and thinking...what kind of people live in this country? Everything anyone owns needs to have money spent on it to keep it functioning....Do these people just buy stuff and let it rot?

        The Government has to do up dates to be doing what it takes to run a country....and that means re vamping broken systems, and structures, relationships with other countries, healthcare schools, educational tools and ways to make it a country with brains to do the work it takes for cell studies, technology, space crafts, energy, new weapons, tools to fight if attacked , vehicles made here , and many things Obama has spent money on to save us from looking like red neck jokes .and when we are left in a bad situation we need to have money spent to pull us out of it.

        When I read some commnets I see the vision of those cartoons people circulate of the redneck who ducktapes a door on his car...or uses the shoppig cart to BBQ...

        I think these must be the people they take pictures of the Walmart jokes about ...and the pictures of the weird things people do in terms of what they wear and drive ...and do ......The Good will shoppers...and I hear the constant complaints that go.....money ....money.....money...and I think man line me up a trail of these big spenders ...I got to have one of these great forward looking men of means......so attractive....NO........!!!!!! It is really so chintzy....so worried about a dollar.........real losers.

        I picture your houses with patches....cardboard in windows.....duck tape on the door....and I thank God I don't know you guys. Weeds up to here......it makes me afraid ...I sure don't want you here....Well you would never spend the kind of money to ever get here.......good.

        I would not want to be looking for a husband in the mess known as todays men. You are sure a scary bunch. I was not cut out to pick @!$%# with the chickens ...but so many of you sound as though you were....and are........I look at my life ..and think.....someone lives with those guys...those poor women.....it must be hell.

        Some trying so hard to sound smart talking through their asses......how embarassing. The contrast between them and a man like Obama is so blatant...and those tea baggers....Jesus Christ......bottom feeders at least ......doing tea bags for Jesus....pricelless ...a real example of ignorance. I can't believe these people represent what they would like this country to look like....

        The year is 2010 and it is still like a backwoods Deliverance bunch.....raised form the grave to torment the people who are way beyond the era.........load those muskets boys.......the south will rise again....Hell no it wont...not even........did you know we now live in a different age? No more tar babies.....women vote....the civil war is over.....we have microwaves and technology....it will never be as it was ....ever again. Wake up to reality. Most of us want to see the progress of our nation.........we are the mainstream...........You live in the past in a dream world..........Who ever promised you we would change and go back to a day long dead?

        No one did...that was in your delusiuonal head....it is never going to turn back again....get a sink..throw away the wash tub.....and board.....the rest of us have indoor plumbing.........it's a new day.....

        Oh yes and dont let me hear how Killfile is getting rich off of Newsvine....if thats your idea of big bucks ....you just told me who you are............

        • 11 votes
        Reply#25 - Tue Apr 6, 2010 2:11 AM EDT
        Nan-813417

        I love a good rant, that was great! ;-)

        • 8 votes
        #25.1 - Tue Apr 6, 2010 5:48 AM EDT
        dcstone01

        It was...

        • 8 votes
        #25.2 - Tue Apr 6, 2010 10:07 AM EDT
        Citizen Kane-473667

        Thank you zanyzazu for proving that hateful vitirol is not the sole property of the Tea Party. You have just proven for the "n"th time you are no better than those you profess to hate because of doing the same thing you just did there. Attaboy's are in order for you....

        So how does it feel to know that you are on the same intellectual discourse level as those you hate so much? Is it as low as you say it is or maybe, just maybe, some of us lowlifes share some of the same propensity for being human and losing our temper that you do. The difference between us is we are focusing our anger on those responsible for the mess we are in while you are "ranting" like a female Rush Limbaugh against those who have been polite even in disagreement. So much for your moral "high ground".....

        P.S. If Killfile is getting rich off of Newsvine it is nothing short of a miracle and I never claimed he was. I simply pointed out that controversy sells and that he was benefiting from it economically, as do I via the Vine, which is the motivation for the media to promote it instead of the lesser known level heads within the groups. But you picked THAT part as a basis for your objection instead of addressing the controversy=profit argument? Could it be because the statement is true?.....

        • 4 votes
        #25.3 - Tue Apr 6, 2010 11:03 AM EDT
        RACHEL1-933952

        It was indeed...just one problem...

        ......The Good will shoppers...

        I've purchased many a good collectible/antique at Goodwill...just saying! :)

        • 4 votes
        #25.4 - Tue Apr 6, 2010 11:10 AM EDT
        MaryEllen Galloway

        #25:Oh yes and dont let me hear how Killfile is getting rich off of Newsvine....if thats your idea of big bucks ....you just told me who you are............

        Hi sweetie, how nice to hear from you again- and telling the truth as usual. Of course, you're correct, too. Just wanted to say hello.

        I'm sure Killfile appreciates you telling the truth, too!

        • 5 votes
        #25.5 - Tue Apr 6, 2010 10:28 PM EDT
        Citizen Kane-473667

        Oh well, time to bail from the circle jerk.....

        Have fun!

        • 3 votes
        #25.6 - Tue Apr 6, 2010 10:58 PM EDT
        Reply
        ChuckGreg

        I grow tired of this tea bagger thing......don't go off to make change, make a recommendation, make a difference locally, do something constructive.....just sit around and whine and bitch. It's become so typical over the last decades in America. When you aren't part of or, even offer a solution, you are part of the problem.

        Can't wait until November? Careful what you ask for.........

        • 6 votes
        Reply#26 - Tue Apr 6, 2010 7:57 AM EDT
        coach mcguirk

        "Yeah, let's just ignore all the polls we don't like."

        The same way Republicans ignore history they don't like?

        • 9 votes
        Reply#27 - Tue Apr 6, 2010 8:47 AM EDT
        coach-1640280Deleted
        RI Mom

        When I find a headline that says TEA PARTIERS ORGANIZE...I'll be impressed.

        • 6 votes
        Reply#29 - Tue Apr 6, 2010 9:39 AM EDT
        UVA

        "Yeah, let's just ignore all the polls we don't like."

        The only "poll" we need to look at is the one that showed a whopping 300 Tea-Baggers at the Washington, DC Health Care Reform "protest".

        Those corporate-owned media fake "polls" cannot cover-up for what we see and what we count.

        • 6 votes
        Reply#30 - Tue Apr 6, 2010 10:17 AM EDT
        redsfan

        There was also a notable lack of "town hall protesters" during this break. Apparently, there was no corporate effort to organize and transport right-wing protesters to town hall meetings, so there was very little drama..and with a few exceptions, the people got to talk to their reps again.

        Any number of factors could be responsible for the toned-down crowds over the past week. Conservative groups that organized protesters to pack town halls before the vote are largely staying out now that the legislative battle is lost for their side. Perhaps Democratic plans to mitigate the threat of protest at town halls have worked.

        Either way, the town hall seemed to return to its roots last week -- rather than a place for insults and misdemeanor assault charges, the meetings between constituents and their members are once again about relatively poor attendance and wonky Q&A sessions.

        • 7 votes
        #30.1 - Tue Apr 6, 2010 10:26 AM EDT
        Reply
        UVA

        The truth is, what is left of the Republican Party is now split into four (4) distinct groups:

        1. rich White (real) Traditional Conservatives - who only want to pay NO taxes
        2. Ron Paul Libertarians (real Tea-Baggers)
        3. Christian-Right Anarchists (fake, Sarah Palin tea-baggers)
        4. RNC-Based centrists who want to unite the 1st 3 groups for votes, and who like private jets & lesbian strip clubs
        • 9 votes
        Reply#31 - Tue Apr 6, 2010 10:24 AM EDT
        grace-1741855Deleted
        grace-1741855Deleted
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