An (Educated) Fool And His Money

My history degree is a luxury

I'm really not sure it should be, though.

I get that one should prepare to be able to pay back any debt one takes on, but there's something wrong with how we charge for school now. I really don't have an answer for how to make it better, but it seems that there's a problem.

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But I know that if the current things of how a person it so make and or live, isn't change

REALLY MEAN: But I know that if the current things of how a person IS TO make and or live . isn't changed....

I was stationed in Japan in 1971, and got to see Led Zepellin perform in Hiroshima at Peace Park. When they arrived for sound check and exited the limo, they saw us GIs and flipped us the bird. We understood the sentiment and had a riotous good time.

I learned welding on the GI Bill in 1972. 1.5yrs school led to 5yrs of great employment. I wonder what $13.00/hr in 1975 would compare to today. I certainly felt I was living large. No complaints here either. What a ride!

A great article for sure Killfile.

I especially agree with the comment that the only way to get a decent high school education today is to go to college. I think free public education should be extended to the community college level since a high school education is no longer enough. It is criminal that we don't prepare our kids for some job beyond flipping burgers.

I like that quip about high school in college. I would think though that the obvious way to address it would be to figure out how to improve high school (as if it were that simple, right?), as opposed to effectively lengthening it by two years. Adopt methods from the UK, or Japan even, improve preschool quality, et cetera.

Killfile,

This is a novelty; I actually completely agree with your article. Will wonders never cease?

I think, BlueJohnny, that we're running up against the problem of teenage shortsightedness.

I think that is partly the case of teen short sightedness, but also can be laid on the doorstep of a lack of discipline. I think that is the primary issue in all public schools today. When a teacher spends 50 % of their time keeping order in the classroom and "teaching down" to the least common denominator, I must wonder how they learn anything at all.

My story is that I received my Draft Notice in June 1967 and, rather than be drafted into the Army I enlisted in the Marines. I think that was the best thing for me personally (except for my time in Quang Tri Provence starting during the 68 Tet) because I learned the discipline that has helped me through my life (I'm 64 now). When I returned home and went to college, I found that I had one advantage over many of the young men and women I was in school with; the discipline to do what had to be done. When everyone was going out for a beer (you could drink at 18 then), I stayed in and studied. That, IMO, is partly why I graduated with two engineering degrees in 4 Years. I've been a professional engineer for over 35 years now. Discipline and decision making are two skills that every young person needs in order to succeed these days in college and in life beyond it.

But, likewise, I don't think every child should be pushed toward or forced into a university degree as the Academic Cartel would have you believe. I lived in Europe in the mid 80's working as a SME for and American company. I liked the concept that Germany used where children were tested and sorted twice in their middle and high school years. The first testing occurred at around the 7th grade and it sorts them into the Trade School, Technical School, or University Paths. They are tested again at around the 11th grade point to further refine the sorting and adjust those that were miss-sorted initially. This gets the children into where they are most likely to succeed rather than just dump them all into the University where 75% of them will fail. What are your thoughts on the matter?

Sort of a tangent on the 5-18 timeline, but I wonder if we also shouldn't be looking at the earliest parts of that range. There's a lot of pretty compelling data to suggest that the most effective investments by society, in terms of cut-and-dry returns on investment, happens at age 3, with preschool (see story here - and while you're at it, the podcast is pretty good too). The basic conclusion that researchers seem to be drawing is that exposure at very young ages to basic social ideas like sharing and compromise make for much more well-adapted adults.

Maybe we should adjust to a 3-16 timeline, or 3-17? I seem to remember friends I have in the UK ending high school effectively at 17 instead of 18.

killfile,

I'll disagree wit you a little on some of this.

Let me just lead with a single fact that very few people stop and think about: under the Bush Administrations' "No Child Left Behind" law, every high school in the country is expected to show a 100% graduation rate. Ponder that statistic for a moment.

First, you will never get a 100% graduation rate no matter what you do unless you just pass everybody no matter what they do or don't do. Isn't that part of the problem? We have just continued to pass the functionally illiterate only because it was too damned hard to fail them. It's like trying to fire a career government employee. You can do it, but it will drive you to distraction. The easy way is just to let the deadbeat "retire in place" except for what it does to the moral of those around him.

That brings me to the next issue, I do not advocate flunking them out, but rather adjusting the system to bring those up that are sub standard in their earlier education while not holding back those that are capable of being challenged. there is nothing worse than a bored student and boredom generally comes from one of two issue; either the student does not understand the per-requisites and has given up or they understand the material the first time and are bored to tears waiting for something to challenge the. in either case, you have a potentially disruptive student that interferes with the learning experience of everyone else. This goes back to my remark about spending 50% of their time keeping order. A Bored student is a disruptive student.

My Great Grandfather had a 2nd grade education but managed to teach himself algebra and Trigonometry so that he could navigate the seas. He was a sailing ship captain when ships still had sails. I don't advocate that we go back to that. But I will disagree a little with you regarding the Discipline. I sent my children to a church school when we returned to the US; not for the religion but for the discipline. (My kids are now in their mid 30's and I have 4 Grand children.)

When my kids started in school, we were living in France. The French schools, like the German ones, are highly disciplined. upon our return, the public schools were already experiencing what I call the "Blight of Political Correctness" and the "Fear of the parent's Attorney." In my day, if I did something wrong in school, the teacher would simply send a note home with me or call my parents and there would be hell to be paid when I came home.

By the time my kids were in the public schools, I could not get a straight answer out of the teacher. I would ask if they were doing what they were supposed to or if they were acting up and the teacher wild spout doubletalk. I found out later from a friend who was a teacher that they were instructed to say nothing bad about the children fro fear of a law suit against the school system. WTF! I want to know if my kids are being a problem; I'LL take care of that issue. The first time I found out about it, it would NOT happen again. That is why we put them in private Catholic schools. I wanted to know what they were doing and what was expected. if they got out of line, I wanted to help nudge them back in bound. We were committed to our children and my late wife and I worked very hard to raise them the right way.

But what if we accepted the fact that the age 5-18 timeline just doesn't work for some people? What if we destigmatized ongoing adult education?

I am all for destigmatizing adult education, but I have to ask you if you have children yourself? The first thing I learned as a parent is that if you TELL a child to do something they will just not want to do it. I let my kids know very early on that our home was not a democracy, but a benevolent dictatorship and I was the Dictator and my late wife the equal and Co-dictator. Our word was law and that was that. If you don't like the arrangement, the door is over there. They learned right from wrong, good from bad, honesty, honor courage and commitment, but most of all, they learned from the start who bosses were.

Different kids find discipline at different times in their lives too; I was a different student at 21 than I was at 18.

We will probably disagree here, but I think that discipline is one of the cornerstones of success. Without it, you may succeed, but there is a greater chance you will fail. For that reason I believe every child in this country needs to attend some discipline demanding system between high school and college only because we teach co little of it now between 1 and 18. Peace Corps, Military, or Coast Guard to instill in them teamwork, following of the rules, and being a part of something bigger than themselves. Teaching them that some things are more important than self and that others depend on you; these are all important things to learn if you want to succeed.

I also like the German system and, while I'm both a child of and married into the Academic Cartel, as you put it, the reason we push kids towards college is that vocational education in this country is a trainwreck. More's the pity. I think we could make some serious strides in education by looking at the success of the German system.

But it doesn't have to be. I am a principle engineer with a major company. I cannot hire enough engineers and technicians and am forced to rely on H1B Visa Candidates. This isn't because we aren't paying very competitive waged, but I just can't find them. But, I'm up to my ass in Lawyers, financiers, and Poli Sci or philosophy majors that come to me with the idea that i owe them a job. That is why I call it the Academic cartel.

That may be because they're 13 months old though. They're pretty good at responding properly to "No" however, so that's a start.

Then you are in for quite a bit of joy and frustration; been there, done that. My only advice to you is to set the rules early. You will be surprised what they understand at 13 months. Both of you must speak with one voice because they will learn how to divide and conquer at very quickly. If you set the boundaries now, you won't have to worry about the problems later that are caused by the lack of them. But most of all, instill the values in them that you want in them NOW (mine were honesty, discipline, honor, courage, and commitment). At this age they are sponges and will suck it up. If you wait until they are 6, you've already lost the battle.